Lessons Learned From Afghanistan And Iraq

[pdq1]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-20869435

Is the use of drones the way forward in international conflicts?

[jake-the-peg]

No
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deh_Bala_wedding_party_airstrike

and No
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_airstrike

60 cross-border predator strikes in the period from January 2006 to April 2009 killed 14 wanted al-Qaeda leaders and 687 Pakistani civilians

Even if we think such collatoral damage is acceptable (and after all that's only 12 times the number killed in 7/7 and that was acceptable wasn't it?) you can't occupy a country with drones any more than you can with aircraft.

A predator drone costs $4.5 million an F15 costs $28 million

They're not used because they're effective - they're not

They're not used to save pilots - there's limited threat in places like Afghanistan.


they're used beause they're cheap

[anotheoldgit]

So it is acceptable to risk our troops on the ground and aircrews in the air, just as long as civilians are not killed?

It is unfortunate that civilians happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, but that happens in all areas of warfare, at least they are not purposely targeted as they were in WW2.

We hear very little from you regarding all the thousands of innocent civilians that are being slaughtered not only by the Taliban but throughout the Middle East.

[jake-the-peg]

//We hear very little from you regarding all the thousands of innocent civilians that are being slaughtered not only by the Taliban but throughout the Middle East. //

Oh is that why we're fighting a war now? and here was me thinking it was something to do with protecting British people!

Isn't that what our armed forces are meant to do? protect us?


I'd be more than happy to support our troops if they were a defensive force - but we all know that nobody joins up in the hope of staying at home and protecting the UK - they all join up for overseas adventure - like the ads promise


Its hard to see them as so brave when they are fighting from a position of such technological superiority - with the odds so heavilly stacked in their favour.

Compare that to those who joined up in 1939 to fight a technologically superior force that was actually a threat to us

No contest really is it?

[mushroom25]

JTP, who said that the deaths occasioned by 7/7 was acceptable - Tony Blair? David Cameron? Do you have a link or anything else to justify that claim?

[anotheoldgit]

jake-the-peg

/// Its hard to see them as so brave when they are fighting from a position of such technological superiority - with the odds so heavilly stacked in their favour. ///

Obviously you have no idea of the rules of engagement that our troops on the ground are forced to obey.

For example the Taliban are allowed to place their improvised explosive devices unheeded, yet the allies are not allowed to place land mines around their garrisons.

Other examples of how our troops have to fight with 'one hand tied behind their backs' are highlighted in this report.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2015944/Soldiers-ordered-shoot-Taliban-planters---WAKES-UP-locals.html

/// A Ministry of Defence spokesman said: ‘The whole point of a counter insurgency operation is to protect the civilian
population.’ ///

/// He said soldiers had to go through a series of stages before opening fire and were sometimes asked to exercise ‘courageous restraint’ even when shots had been fired. ///

/// ‘It is all about winning hearts and minds and using the least force possible,’ the spokesman said. ///

[emmie]

no one wins do they, time we got all our troops out of Afghanistan,
and it isn't right that innocent civilians are killed, however it's also not
right that our soldiers are being killed by those they are training, either by the Afghan soldier or policeman.

[emmie]

not to mention the innocent Afghan civilians who are murdered by the Taliban, how many dead there i wonder.

[Quizmonster]

At Crecy in 1346, an English army defeated a much larger French one by virtue of the skill of archers and their longbows. At Agincourt in 1415, the French had clearly learned nothing and were similarly devastated.
What was the key advantage of the longbow as against armoured cavalry? The fact that it was effective at a distance! That is, the archers could inflict casualties without putting themselves at any great risk.
According to Shakespeare, King Henry V thought his men were brave and that Englishmen not present on the day would forever regret their absence.
I can see very little difference between longbows 6/700 years ago and drones today. I daresay a few French camp followers were killed in the hail of arrows...merely the collateral damage of the times.
Certainly you don't have to be 'brave' to direct a drone from Lincolnshire or Nebraska, but you are certainly protecting your own troops, despite the collateral harm being so much more marked by virtueof the weaponry involved. C'est la guerre!

[McMouse]

Use of a drone is just another method of delivering death. Artillery shells, cruise missiles etc are just as impersonal and indiscriminate.

[emmie]

McM, what is the answer, leave, well that is on the cards, what happens after all the troops pull out?

[tonyav]

Business as usual for the Taliban I think em.

[emmie]

indeed, and they will go on killing innocent men, women and children just as they did before the troops arrived.

[tonyav]

Exactly em, our soldiers will have died for nothing.

[McMouse]

My best guess em10 is that once the troops have left the country will return to the same tribal conflicts as before. It's not possible to impose western democracy on a people who have little regard for the rule of law and who also hold like as cheap.

[McMouse]

^^^ Life cheap.

[emmie]

tony, perhaps you are right, i honestly feel that this was an unwinnable conflict. I feel sorry for the ordinary Afghani citizen, caught up in this nightmare.

[tonyav]

I agree em, unwinnable.

[McMouse]

In 1961 I was deployed with my brigade to Kuwait near the Iraq border to 'discourage' the Iraqis from invading. At the time the strategy seemed to work...........!

[emmie]

totally agree about being unwinnable, also that it will likely revert to it's tribal ways. If only someone had the bright idea of trying to get the Taliban around the negotiating table, what do they want after all? and see if there can't be a compromise somewhere down the line.