Are we a nation of passive racists?

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.dailymail....-authors-bigotry.html

Well we are according to ex footballer John Barnes, does he suggest that we burn all these classics, such as the Nazis did in the 30s?

These books were written in a different age and reflected the feelings of explorers, colonist etc when they ventured into strange lands and encountered the natives of these lands, some which were proved to be very strange, savage and leading much different lifestyles to their own.

If these peoples also had such authors, they would have most likely have written the same sort of things about the white man.

[tonyav]

I'm in total agreement with you there aog.

[Mosaic]

I haven't read your link AOG, but my experience is there is plenty of racism in every culture in the globe. Everyone thinks themselves and their own are the best, and everyone else is at best one of god's mistakes.

[rojash]

So what this guy is saying is that although he's never met me, he can make judgements about me based on the fact that I'm a white Briton.

Now that's what I call racism.

[THECORBYLOON]

Who mentioned anything about the Nazis and the burning of books?

[woofgang]

Whatever you want to think, where people have been brought up differently, race exists. Diversity exists. Yes those books are books of their time and must be read and understood as such.
This is very much like the bloke who was on Jeremy Vine on Radio two who asserted that all white people were racist and all of them had at some time had thoughts like "why should that black person be ahead of me in the supermarket queue"..which IMO is weird at best and prejudiced belief on his part at worst.

[whiskeryron]

rojash, ooh you are awful ,but I like you http://youtu.be/jUn0n9Yu7Vw

[ummmm]

He hasn't just stood on his soap box and started spouting this.

Barnes launched his fierce attack on literature in a lecture to students at Liverpool University about the causes of racism in football.

This is a man who had a banana skin thrown at him during a football match.

[jake-the-peg]

I read Kipling's just so stories to my kids - worth doing because they loved them and they're fabulous - but I did have to censure some of the bits with the most outrageous racism in them.

If they want to read them fully now their older and have the capability of understanding that these were written when attitudes were different that's great.

The problem arises when they're younger and can't understand that these were older ideas that aren't acceptable now.

Well not acceptable to 99.99% of us anyway

[jno]

it's clear there's a modest amount of overt racism in Britain. It's hard to believe it isn't underpinned by more widespread passive racism, as he calls it. Stephen Lawrence was killed by racists; the police who handled the case are more likely to have been passive racists (an inquiry found "institutional racism", which probably amounts to the same thing).

[sp1814]

Depends on too many variables.

Older Brotons are more racist than younger Britons (who are much more likely to work with and/or have non-white friends).

Your geographic location will also impact your level of racism.

With regard for the idea that inherent racism exists worldwide - yes, I don't doubt that for a second...but what is telling is how those differences manifest themselves....a CH4 documentary called 'Meet The Natives' took a group of tribesmen (can't remember from where) and brought them to Britain. Whilst they found many of our customs odd, they did not assume superiority over the British, which is a common component of European settlers when they colonise another territory...

For instance, when Europeans first started colonising Australia, they hunted Aborigines for sport (something that can't really be excused as 'cultural differences').

[jno]

just to add to jake's post: these things can be slippery to define.

If Enid Blyton uses golliwogs in her stories, that need not be racist.

If the golliwogs are always baddies, that might tell a different story.

[Kromovaracun]

"These books were written in a different age and reflected the feelings of explorers, colonist etc when they ventured into strange lands "

Yes, that's true. And it's overwhelmingly the case that those feelings were pretty racist. Victorian society as a whole was pretty racist by modern standards - I think it'd be pretty naive not to realise that. And you're also right on your latter point - the Chinese Empire's much earlier explorations also had an underlying racial hierarchy, with Chinese civilization on top.

All of that's pretty irrelevant however. What's clear to modern eyes is that having stories and discourses which propagate a racial hierarchy is not a good thing. Personally, I think there's a lot of unease in accepting how pervasively such a culture can get into society - which is probably the closest thing to 'passive racism' that you'll realistically find. If you find racism in this country, I think it's more often active than passive.

[whiskeryron]

I have always been of the opinion that I am as good as anyone & everyone regardless of who they are is as good as me. Have a look at babies playing together ( Black, White, Asian,Oriental ) they have no idea that they are different
When or why do some of us think we are superior or inferior ? Remember we are all created equally.

[Flyhalf]

It is a generational thing.
In the days when these were written, indigenous members of population in our colonies (narrowly avoided saying "natives") were usually only seen in those places, and by British people sent there to, in effect, rule over them.
Anyone born post-WW2 will be more familiar with non-white faces, in addition to which most Commonwealth countries are now self-governing, and rightly take their place at the UN and other international fora. Many also came to Britain to be educated, and we came across polished cultured individuals.
Our experience is of comparatively small numbers of immigrants, and we can more readily accept them as equals, whereas in USA's Southern states, there were huge numbers of former slaves vying with the locals for work, and they have taken longer to assimilate these attitudes.
Barnes wasn't asking for revisions to texts, merely pointing out that prevalent attitudes of a bygone era are passed on if one reads them uncritically - but who with any education does? I suspect that those who are likely be influenced by them won't read them anyway.

[sophie_1003]

Agree that authors wrote appropriately for the time they were writing but having seen some 'information' books about different cultures when we were having a sort out of books at school I can see why he is arguing that children learn racism from books; we had one that showed a black African child next to a mud hut, a child from a South American country living in a stilt house next to the Amazon and so on.
Obviously differences in ways of life exist and it is interesting to find out about them but they present a very narrow view of the country in question and alienate children from the ones presented in these information books as they seemingly have nothing in common with them.

[anotheoldgit]

/// This is a man who had a banana skin thrown at him during a football match. ///

And this is a man who had a rocket fired at him during a football match.

http://www.dailymail....ition-supporters.html

[pdq1]

Its people like John Barnes who have stirred up racism in this country. Before you could read a book without thinking about colour or race. The black servants knew where they stood in the hierarchy and were content to do so. They talk about slave labour as if the blacks are the only race to experience it.

If you have ever worked on a production line at Fords you know what slave labour is. You cannot leave your production line even to have a pee and you work hard from the moment you enter the plant until its time to go home. They should get things in perspective.

[jno]

you don't know anything about slavery, pdq1. Ford workers go home at the end of their shift, and get paid for it.

[sandyRoe]

But could the line supervisor take you daughter to his bed if the fancy took him?
And could you be sold down the river if you didn't keep up with the other workers making those Ford cars?

[pdq1]

I do know jno, I have experienced it!