Shortsighted Politicians Over Defence.

[William51]

 An unstable world with a major war in Europe which the mad Putin has control over Russias nuclear missiles, a war in the Middle East, global conflicts. But against the experts our politicians will not fund properly our depleted armed forces. This dangerous time should be the signal to fund our services properly. Discuss please.

[retrocop]

One MOD minister stated that conscription may well be an option if there is not enough funding for the military requirements.What the heck does that do to perotect us? The russians have thousands of unwilling,untrained conscripts who are used as a wall of charging cannon fodder.Most ordnance stocks (small arms and artillery ammunition) has been depleted in the UK. I know for a fact that Civilian armouries have had their ammo commandeered to train Ukrainian troops over here. The military need to replenish all their stocks and give it to well trained professionals. The MOD should sack many of their civil servant procurement staff. I suppose if the MOD are going to hold witchhunts every time our troops open fire on the enemy then ,obviously, morale in the armed forces will dwindle and there will be no professionals left.Somebody is not smelling the coffee and it isn't as though the likes of West and Dannart have not been banging their drums about the dire straits our defence capability has come to for a few years.

[andy-hughes]

I have thought for a long time that the obscene amounts of money paid for defence are not justifiable.

If we were, as many politicians dream, still a major power on the world stage, then attacking us would be a viable option for an enemy.

But since it is abundently clear that any attack on us would be met with a counter-attack from the US, I ponder the need to maintain anything more than a token defence system, which is unlikely to be called upon at all.

The notion that we are big enough and powerful enough to cause a threat to other major powers is a fallacy.

I think that money spent on defence would be far better directed in almost any other direction.

Better that instead of spending billions of pounds boosting a defence system we don't need, we spend them on our crumbling nation, in order that we don't actually start rebuilding a damaged nation into something that actually merits defence in the first place.

[Old_Geezer]

I rarely agree with Shapps, but he is right about this. Russia is invading it's European neighbour, N. Korea is firing missile tests and pulling out of agreements, China is manoeuvring to get a global empire, committing genocide, threatening Taiwan, and crashing into Japanese & Philippine ships, or encroaching across sea boundaries, Israel and Palestine are involved in hostilities, plenty of other worries too.

 

This needs to be prepared for since it's as or more likely to escalate as it is to subside.

 

Of course money is tight at present with insufficient to fund all that needs funding, but not building the military equipment back up to strength, and enrolling many more personnel, is a short sighted allocation of resources. We had that issue before, but lessons seem not to have been learnt.

[rockyracoon]

I agree, yhey are shortsighted. Russia and China are very much a threat and possible some of the mad places like Iran. I would pay more income tax to fund a better defence.

[retrocop]

Just like 1938 all over again. Why shouldn't we have the right and means to defend ourselves properly. We need a stronger professional armed forces with equipment to match unlike the appeasment policy put forward by the likes of Lord Halifax and scum like Joseph Kennedy. As an aside I read that more British muslims joined up with ISIS than joined our British Armed forces at the time. 

[andy-hughes]

I don't believe we have ever had, or ever will have, a level of defensive capability that would realistically deter any would-be aggressors any one of which make our defence systems look like a couple of catapults. 

Instead of keeping up the facile illusion that we actually  matter as a major world power, we should stop pretending, stop pontificating, stop provoking, and stop antagonising.

Switzerland, and indeed all the Nordic countries have the right idea.

Keep quiet, stay safe.

[retrocop]

//Switzerland, and indeed all the Nordic countries have the right idea.

Keep quiet, stay safe.//

Really? I believe every male in Switzerland is compelled to do National Service. They are given a rifle to keep at home when they have completed their tour. They are required to attend each year for range practise. They also have an advanced airforce. I notice you forgot to mention Sweden and Finland who are clamouring to join Nato because of their belligerent neighbours. Theyare not keeping quiet.

[Old_Geezer]

Were I a US citizen and decided that was the UK attitude I think I'd support withdrawing from NATO and leaving the timid, no intent to play their part, nations to their own fate too. We are either in this together or not. 

 

https://www.thoughtco.com/aesops-fable-the-bundle-of-sticks-118589

[Rosetta]

Have you never heard of deterence andy.  MAD was what kept us safe  during the Cold War. Tyrranical regimes dont attack and /or invade countries that are likely to fight back.

Russia severly misjudged its invasion of Ukraine, and without the strong reaction of the west them may well have had other countries in their sights.

And you are forgetting Nordic countries have now joined NATO for that very reason

[andy-hughes]

retrocop - // Really? I believe every male in Switzerland is compelled to do National Service. They are given a rifle to keep at home when they have completed their tour. They are required to attend each year for range practise. //

I assume your point is to contradict my opinion that, in comparison, the Nordic countries spend far less per capita on defence, and therefore, unlike us, have a nation actually worth defending, instead of being like Russia, fighting an unwinable war, while its citizens subsist in poverty.

The only people who clamour for more arms and armaments ar those with a vested interest in providing them - politicians who want to look hard, generals who don't want to play war games, but dream of the real thing, and citizens who don't want to consider how much better we would be if all that money was diverted into health and education.

What price a little island with a masive defence system, when no country is going to bother attacking them, and their citizens are watching their lives fall apart as the fabric of their society rots for want of meaningful cash injections

[andy-hughes]

Rosetta - //

Have you never heard of deterence andy.  MAD was what kept us safe  during the Cold War. Tyrranical regimes dont attack and /or invade countries that are likely to fight back. //

That's my point.

I don't think Russia would ever contemplate attacking the UK when the instant response is going to be reprisals from the US and other allied nations.

Russia severly misjudged its invasion of Ukraine, and without the strong reaction of the west them may well have had other countries in their sights. //

Exactly. Russia can invade Ukraine because it's next door, they only have to march their army in.

We are an island nation thousands of miles away, Russia has no interest in us at all.

We can have our obscene defence budget buying hardware that will never see the light of day, never mind a battle field, and our country will slide into a morass whereby, not only is it not worth attacking, it has ceased to be worth defending as well.

[retrocop]

Russia,Norway,Germany France and thenthe UK. Precisely why Royal Marines trained in Norway because thatwas the route the Russians were expected to attack. That is why we had the B.A.O.R. for so many years after the 2ndWW. Idiots believed the cold war is over and that is why we no longer have troops in Europe but........whoa.... wait a minute. I belive we have British troops in Estonia and RAF aircraft patrolling Estonian air space along with other nations including Norway. The Cold War is not over and whilst we have mugs who believe it is we will be a walkover if we don't take steps to protect ourselves. If Trump got back in the White House we will not be relying on our 'special relationship' to row us out the brown and sticky.

[Rosetta]

Why would USA come to our aid if we have an attitude of appeasement and are not inclined to defend our own citizens. We may not be next door to Russia but they are still dangerous to us . I for one dont support the idea of rolling over in the deluded hope it will just tickle our tummy

[William51]

Another reason we need good armed forces is to fight for good over evil, like the recent US and UK fightback on Houthi rebels over their attacks on international shipping in the Red Sea.

[Prudie]

The US would only come to our defence because we pay to be in NATO. Stop that and they won't. Trump even said so in the last month or so.

[nicebloke1]

Gaza is thousands of miles away from the UK, but their war has still spilt into our back yard. Distance does not make us safe especially with the weapons of today. No investment can only mean no defence or very little.

[andy-hughes]

Putting invaded Ukraine because he believes it should be part of Russia, he is an empire builder. 

Does anyone seriously expect he would invade the UK by msrching through Europe? Apart from the imagined reaction from any of the countries he passed through, there is the small matter of the Channel, or will he hire a fleet of ferries?

We are not a world power except in the fantasies of people who want the empire back.

Putin is not interested in invading us, he has immediate neighbours demanding his attention. 

Why on earth would he want a little decaying island like ours?

It's fantasy, and the idea is costing billions.

[ladybirder]

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/russia-ukraine-london-nuclear-weapons-b1139902.html

 

[Rosetta]

Should we not help our friends and alies? Should we give in to bullies, tyrants and megalomaniacs?

Has the history of the start of WW2 taught us nothing.

Its got nothing to do with wanting the power to restore the empire. If you view it as such you are viewing it through a very limited prism, and a wrong one imho