Psychic Feelings

[vernonk]

Do you believe that - maybe even have examples of - some people can somehow sense what you're thinking or feeling even if they're a long distance away and haven't seen in you in a long while?

[jomifl]

Khandro,'"Like a sword that cuts but cannot cut itself;
Like an eye that sees but cannot see itself." .... Zenrin Kushu.

Nice quote, I could have used that earlier :-)

[jim360]

Special is a relative term. As wonderful as the human brain undoubtedly is, I don't see that it should be special as in able to tap into previously inaccessible energies. It's just another arrangement of fundamental matter at heart, and in that at least it is not special.

Naomi -- my principal question was more general, really, which was, "What are your criteria in general for assessing the credibility of any claim?" So far, for example, I've laid on the table the history of scientific evidence that doesn't support this, that has been rejected on the grounds that "parapsychology is a truly random phenomenon" or that "we don't have the technology yet". Leaving aside the fact that investigating the random is basically all of what modern Science is anyway, the second criticism is not impossible, but serious parapsychological scientists exist and do not agree with you and have tried the world over to investigate this, with results indistinguishable from statistical noise. Never mind, because the anecdotal evidence is highly convincing. Or, similarly, there may be plenty of artistic and archaeological evidence for some alien visitors, but such is open to interpretation and there is nothing beyond this.

So while my hierarchy of evidence is experimental followed by everything else, yours would appear to put other evidence on an equal footing with experiment. Is this a fair assessment?

[Khandro]

jom; I purposely avoided using the particular - human brain, referring to brain in general, as I believe there is some affinity between 'brains' throughout all creatures great and small.

[jomifl]

Khandro, there is an uncanny similarity between the brains of different creatures, the same goes for other parts of the anatomy too. Possibly something to do with form and function, convergence of evolution, whatever.
However to get to the point of my post. We know nothing about almost all of the universe and we almost certainly will continue to know as much or perhaps a little more. So you cannot really say that the brain is the most extraordinary and astonishing object in the universe, I doubt that it is that even on Earth.

[Khandro]

jomifl; //So you cannot really say that the brain is the most extraordinary and astonishing object in the universe,//
Well I can really; the two adjectives are of course subjective, but perhaps, out of interest, you could point to something you consider to be more remarkable (notwithstanding you will have to use your brain to do so).

[Answerprancer]

"Not at all. There is no such thing as being psychic"
...in your humble opinion?

[Answerprancer]

I can't believe the opinionated lack of humility displayed by one or two responders here. No mind like a closed mind eh!

[Answerprancer]

To answer your question Vernon - maybe yes maybe no.

[TWR]

Vernok, If you can, get a copy of a book called Psychology Ideas,

You Really need to know.

By Adrian Furnham.

Have a look at it Daffy, It will open you thoughts on Psychic.

[cazzz1975]

Agree AP, I am frequently amazed at the arrogance of some people who can tell you for a fact that these sorts of things don't exist.

[jomifl]

Khandro, O course you can say anything you like but I think the onus is on you to justify your unverifiable and ridiculous statement. Just as I cannot prove that god doesn't exist you cannot prove that there isn't anything more remarkable than the brain (of whatever kind). I don't think your brain will be of much help though.

[jim360]

It's not arrogance, really. It's more of a "Hey, I wonder if this is true -- oh, look, they've been investigating this seriously for years, nay decades, with precisely nothing credible turning up beyond the level of anecdote."

Reasons to be sceptical of telekinesis, for example: the US military actually took it seriously enough to convene a research panel in 1984, and it took them 22 years to conclude that there was nothing in it. That's far too long to claim that it was dismissed out of hand.

Similar reasons exist to be highly sceptical of most claims of telepathic abilities. Apart from being real, they could just as easily be the inevitable result of lots of people thinking they can see the future and some just happening to be right by chance. With so many humans on the planet, for a reasonably long time, you'd expect quite a few stories just by chance. The onus is on people who believe it to be more than chance to demonstrate that this is so; that is, that there are far more such cases than you would expect from just guessing. How to go about this isn't clear -- how do you estimate the probabilities in the case that it were all luck? -- so that if you believe in telepathy and parapsychology that's all it is: a belief. Not a crazy one, by any means, but the evidence is against it. I don't see that it's a problem to say this.

While it may never be possible to conclusively rule out the idea that such abilities are genuine, there has to come a point where it's just clutching at straws to maintain such a belief.

[jomifl]

Jim, the strange thing about these rare examples of psychic ability is that they are about as common as co-incidences. I think a study of the correlation of belief in psychic phenomena with other intellectual and physical parameters would be informative.

[Answerprancer]

It's still a matter of opinion/subjective to dictate otherwise is dogmatic and opinionated to say the least ...IMO.

[jim360]

Fair enough. I've presented my case, and tried to insist upon rational scepticism rather than dogma.

[jomifl]

That is the whole problem AP, the only facts are that there don't seem to be any facts other than psychic powers haven't been proven to exist. It is like religion a matter of belief/faith.

[naomi24]

Jom, //It is like religion a matter of belief/faith. //

I beg to differ. The religious may claim to experience something rather out of the ordinary, but for no other reason than that they believe in God, that's what they attribute it to. On the other hand, the non-religious may experience similar phenomena, but there is no 'faith' involved. They question its source. They say it happened - they have no doubt it happened - but they don't know how or why - and that's what they would like science to answer. They don't seek answers from religion - they seek them from science.

[Khandro]

jomifl; I asked you to point to something more remarkable than the brain, and instead of answering the question (as usual when you are on the back foot) you bring in your obsession with the belief or not in God.
I really don't know what 'psychic' means, but can you account for the extraordinary abilities demonstrated by the brains of homing pigeons for example, pointed out by James le Fanu, ingenious experiments have investigated possible explanations of their navigational mechanisms - familiar landmarks, the position of the sun, the earths magnetic field or their sense of smell. To this end scientists have studied the effects of releasing pigeons in overcast weather or at night, have shifted their time sense, have blocked their nostrils or confused them with odours, have fixed magnets to their wings and have blinded them with frosted contact lenses, but despite all these scientific efforts the phenomenon of navigation remains unexplained - remove cue after cue and they still retain some backup strategy for establishing flight direction. The most perplexing finding of all is that pigeons can find their home even though it is moved repeatedly on a trailer in arbitrary directions over long distances.
Please either give an explanation or point to something you find more remarkable.

[jomifl]

Khandro, Its no good trying to sidestep in a cloud of waffle, you have no way of subsantiating your claim that / the brain is the most extraordinary and astonishing object in the universe/and you know it. If you don't then either I have credited you with more intelligence than is your due or you live in a very small universe. You also obviously know very little about homing pigeons.

[daisya]

May I just throw a different happening into the equation? I wonder if someone would like to comment on how or why the following could happen - which it did. I don't often wear my wedding ring indoors because sometimes my fingers swell up. Whilst home all day some years ago, my wedding finger was really "annoying me..." it was though I had a tight ring on it but I had no ring there. It continued all day, I kept rubbing my finger to try and get rid of the feeling, it was a really odd thing because I'd never experienced it before. Eventually during late afternoon the feeling subsided which believe me was a great relief as it was SO annoying.

In the evening after dinner and with no warning my OH who had been at work all day said, "Do you know what, I've had this really horrible tight feeling on this finger ALL day...I just couldn't get rid of it though it's gone now...." I was astounded when he pointed to his wedding ring finger on his left hand...and he doesn't wear a wedding ring. It seems that we were both experiencing the same tightness on the same finger all that day. I have no idea why it should have been or what it was for, we've not experienced it since. Is there an explanation for this do you think?

As for "belief" in psychic feelings for me. I can't say I'm a believer because it happens to me, all I know is I have "known" things either telepathically or by other means, that they have come true and I've always accepted it as normal. If others tell me they experience similar I can't verify it as they can't with my experiences, it's just one of those things and I don't ask others to believe me either. It would be like people telling me on here that they've been shopping or been to a concert, I can't prove it, I just accept what they say, it's happened yet what proof have they got if a) they didn't buy anything whilst shopping, or b) they don't have any physical evidence to prove they have been to such and such concert.

Science doesn't and perhaps never will have all the answers to everything but who knows what may come in the future? I'm at ease with how I'm "programmed" and wouldn't particularly say I believed in psychic abilities (or whatever) just because it happens to me. Naomi has hit the nail on the head IMO many times regarding this discussion but especially in her posting yesterday at 23:31.