Happy Medium

[LewPaper]

China has one of the worst regimes in the world when it comes to individual freedom. Choices are severely limited and harsh penalties follow the beaking of the simplest law.

Surely this can't be tolerated.

In the west, or the UK at least, we have unlimited freedom; in fact many bodies exist to ensure they're not eroded and where possible even expanded. The phrases 'human rights', 'civil liberties' and especially 'data protection' are used more as a shield behind which to hide their personal ignorance of the concept or of its implementation.

Parents are dissuaded from using anything other than a good talking to to their little darlings resulting in ASBOs when they're older.

We're so used to the 'OK we're married now. Who's gonna give us a house?' or 'OK we've got a kid now. Who's gonna pay for it?' concepts from which any deviation is a 'threat to our civil liberties'.Young girls getting an unwanted pregnancy and demanding accommodation, their fathers absconding leaving everyone else to foot the bill.

Surely this can't be tolerated.

Isn't there a happy medium?

[beso]

Yes and that personal freedom comes at an enormous cost. Individuals have near complete freedom to be incredibly antisocial.

I have been to China and they seem far more contented with their lot than many in the West. Ordinary people share a genuine respect for each other. Women wander the streets or ride bicycles miles from anywhere in the middle of the night without fear. Women are treated as equals to men.

The Chinese are all in it together. They know exactly where the boundaries lie and know who are their opressors. Ordinary citizens trust each other. By and large if you just want to get on with your life you are free to do so.

In the West we trust nobody because we never know who will take advantage of us. Those who we slap over the wrist wouldn't get another chance in China.

The happy medium is much closer to China than many in the West care to contemplate.

[LewPaper]

Thanks for your contribution beso and I couldn't have put it better myself. With freedom comes responsibility, a quality sorely lacking in today's western culture.

[jno]

you could try asking Tibetans what they think of this happy Chinese culture. Come to that, you could ask Chinese people themselves, but they're mostly too scared to say anything critical of the government to be able to give you an honest answer.

[LewPaper]

Yep, I dare say they are but I would've thought it obvious that I was trying a paint a larger picture of the beach rather than just one pebble in detail. But thanks for your contribution. I'm sure some people will thank you for it.

[jno]

In our culture, people have babies and (in some cases) hope the state will pay for it. In China if you have a second child you will be told to abort it. Seriously, which is better? Which regime would you rather live under? (And would your anser be different if you were pregnant?)

Not everything a visitor sees can be taken at aface value.

This doesn't quite answer your question about a happy medium, but given the choice, more people try to emigrate to the USA and UK than try to emigrate to China. This seems to me to suggest they prefer those countries on the whole even though there may be downsides to living there.

[LewPaper]

Yes jno, I do take your point and I'm sorry if my last remarks seemed a bit blunt.

I'm sure there's thousands of stories of ill-treatment coming out of China and I'm far from advocating that particular style of government. I was trying to highlight the differences between our liberal, tolerant culture and that of a more dictatorial one.

Far from advocating their regime I think you'll find I was condemning it by the use of the words 'Surely this can't be tolerated'.

What I'm advocating is somewhere in the middle, picking what's best from both.

[jno]

you're contrasting us with China and asking if there's a middle way. But perhaps we are the middle way and the real contrast with China is somewhere like Afghanistan where central authority is weak and you can get away with murder if you've got the money and the weaponry. I'd say Britain was about right in being midway between Beijing and Kabul, so to speak, and I'd much rather live in London than either of them.

[123everton]

I've travelled widely in China (off the beaten track) and you can't help but be impressed.
you have to remember China is only 30 years from the cultural revolution and is now only 60 years old after a period which saw the fall of dynastic rule, the overthrow of Sun Yaet Sen, the fall of Yuen Shi Kai (over the 21 demands), the return and death of Sun Yaet Sen followed by Chang Kai Chek, civil war,invasion and more civil war.
China was very busy last century.
There are exemptions to the 2 child rule based on ethnicity etc, you may have to pay a fine (negotiable) or you could go to jail, many people here talk about overpopulation.
Tibet was an awful place when it was a theocracy, don't be fooled into the notion that the people were all happy then they were'nt.
The unpalatable truth is we can learn a lot from the Chinese, they value the old, they value education, they value good health, they value good manners and hard honest work.
One thing I've noticed about China is the huge amount of public spaces everywhere not just parks but exercise equipment and so on.
The people are happy amongst themselves, their children are not as thieving or murderous as ours.
I saw a childs photo album, printed on the inside page were the words "I must do all I can to preserve world peace" all ours wannado is play Grand Theft Auto.

[123everton]

Slight correction, theft is an issue in China as everything is guarded, if you park your car or your bike there'll be someone there to mind it 24 hours a day, also some of the taxi drivers sit in caged sections in their cars, so there are some problems with theft and violence.
You don't see much grafiti in China and even some of what you see is useful (telephone numbers to acquire work permits).
There's no CCTV in China, but I did see something remarkable over there a car was parked illegally the Police came and twice sounded the siren to tell the owner to move or get a ticket, you would'nt get that chance here.

[blackcat77]

There was a piece in the Daily Mail today about a shopkeeper who wanted to give his staff and himself time off over Christmas, so on Boxing Day he left the shop open with just an honesty box. The shop was in Settle, North Yorkshire. When he came back to lock up the shop, he found that he had taken �187.66 and 2 Euros and notes from all the customers saying what they had bought and had paid for their goods, and if they had needed change they just overpaid a bit. That story made me feel that maybe there are some nice and trusting people still left in the world. Wish it was a bit more like that now! Having said that I don't think I would like to live anywhere but the U.K.;it's lovely to go on holiday but you still feel that you're home when you get back.

[LewPaper]

Just shows how things CAN be done.

I'm sure a good deal of the causes of unrest is the fault of these bare-foot, sandal-wearing, bearded sociology graduates; and not just the women either.

Not so long ago the birch was banned in the Isle of Man. The reason? It was thought to be inhuman. But isn't that what a deterrent should be about? Perhaps violent theft from an OAP on their way back from the Post Office isn't inhuman then?

We desperately need to evaluate what we want and how to achieve it. Living a productive, peaceful life is too precious a concept to be scuppered by short-term idealism.

[jake-the-peg]

Living a productive, peaceful life is too precious a concept to be scuppered by short-term idealism.

Well I'm shocked

If everybody thought like that we'd still be livingin Feudal times!

Short term idealism like

Magna Carta
Bill of Rights
The Reform Act
Universal sufferage
Parliament act?

Or is the work done?

We're now living in a political Utopia where no further change is needed?

We still have unelected bishops and Lords sitting in Parliament deciding our future

Our elections are effectively decided by a couple of hundred thousand voters

We have a hereditary head of state and a system where we don't even get to vote for the Prime Minister who runs the country!

You may be "all right Jack" and happy to put your slippered feet up by the fire but hopefully there is still some idealism left in the country brave enough to try change

[LewPaper]

Oh dear Jake. I forgot about you. Should've used more monosyllabic words.

Isn't 'idealism' unachievable? What you're bleating about is REALISM, not quite the same thing. Even today a headmistress has banned the use of the word 'school' in their school. You saying she's right, or has the right to do that? Christmas lights are banned in areas where they might cause offence; THAT's what I'm on about - the nonsensical so-called idealism of the loonies.

As for your sarcasm, I'd leave that to those who can use it properly.