Question Author
pugwashjw, okay, lets have it your way, God and Jesus were there together, at the very beginning, jesus, I think you'll agree, from what you've said, is gods son, so what we have, before creation, is father and son, so when was Jesus first born?, and that of course, would make his birth from Mary, his second birth. It also begs the question, if they were there before creation, why did God create a son, if it was to fulfill prophesies maybe thousands of years later, God knew then what was going to happen, which then means that no-one has free will, all the suffering, catastrophies, wars, are Gods will, and we have no say in the matter,