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Why attribute anything to the God of Abraham?
47 Answers
Down to basics here. The only record we presume we have of his existence is the Bible – and since that book is full of contradictions, it follows that, as evidence, it must be unreliable. So why?
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Naomi@ You keep telling me you have read the Bible yet you can't see where Jesus is referred to in the Hebrew scriptures. True he is not mentioned by the name Jesus, as that was his earthly name.
Now I am going to do a c & p here, so please forgive me,
Prov. 8 v 22 - 31
22 “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. 24 When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. 25 Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, 26 when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. 27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28 when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29 when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31 being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.
or if you prefer the KJV:
22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him.
I am sorry but I will have to leave you there for this morning as I have to go to work now but I will get back to you.
Now I am going to do a c & p here, so please forgive me,
Prov. 8 v 22 - 31
22 “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. 24 When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. 25 Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, 26 when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. 27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28 when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29 when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31 being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.
or if you prefer the KJV:
22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him.
I am sorry but I will have to leave you there for this morning as I have to go to work now but I will get back to you.
Truthabounds, a little selective editing there. If you read the whole passage you will see it clearly refers to ‘wisdom’. This is what is claimed here to have been created at the beginning – not Jesus, so no surprise he’s not mentioned.
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How do we know that these words refer to God’s Son?
In verse 22, wisdom says: “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago.” More than just wisdom must be involved here, for that quality never was “produced.” It never began to exist because God has always existed and he has always been wise.
(Psalm 90:2 - Before the mountains themselves were born,
Or you proceeded to bring forth as with labor pains the earth and the productive land,
Even from time indefinite to time indefinite you are God)
God’s Son, however, was “the firstborn of all creation.” He was produced, or created; he was the earliest of all of Jehovah’s achievements.
(Colossians 1:15 - He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation).
The Son existed before the earth and the heavens, as described in Proverbs. And as the Word, God’s own Spokesman, he was the perfect expression of Jehovah’s wisdom.—John 1:1.
In verse 22, wisdom says: “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago.” More than just wisdom must be involved here, for that quality never was “produced.” It never began to exist because God has always existed and he has always been wise.
(Psalm 90:2 - Before the mountains themselves were born,
Or you proceeded to bring forth as with labor pains the earth and the productive land,
Even from time indefinite to time indefinite you are God)
God’s Son, however, was “the firstborn of all creation.” He was produced, or created; he was the earliest of all of Jehovah’s achievements.
(Colossians 1:15 - He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation).
The Son existed before the earth and the heavens, as described in Proverbs. And as the Word, God’s own Spokesman, he was the perfect expression of Jehovah’s wisdom.—John 1:1.
Truthabounds, //More than just wisdom must be involved here, for that quality never was “produced.” It never began to exist because God has always existed and he has always been wise.//
You’re making it up. You have no more idea of what a creator God might be than anyone else. If the bible is truly the word of God, why do you insist on interpreting parts of it to suit your purpose rather than simply believe what it says? Yours really is the God of convenient conundrums! Moving on, the authorship of Colossians is highly disputed, one of the reasons being that the work bears the hallmark of a much later and more established version of Christianity. The authors of the rest of the New Testament are unknown, as are most of their numerous editors, but they all have one thing in common in that their purpose was, among others, to confirm the veracity of ancient scripture, and to demonstrate that ancient prophecy had been fulfilled. Quite simply, the piece in question doesn’t say what you claim it says – and it doesn’t say what you claim they assert. Your conclusions haven’t been reached through a logical thought process - they’re wishful thinking. However, it appears that’s quite common. Ask any good Muslim and he will tell you the coming of Mohammed was prophesied in the bible. Have you spotted it? The chances are you haven’t – but Muslim scholars have. It seems you’re all at it!
You’re making it up. You have no more idea of what a creator God might be than anyone else. If the bible is truly the word of God, why do you insist on interpreting parts of it to suit your purpose rather than simply believe what it says? Yours really is the God of convenient conundrums! Moving on, the authorship of Colossians is highly disputed, one of the reasons being that the work bears the hallmark of a much later and more established version of Christianity. The authors of the rest of the New Testament are unknown, as are most of their numerous editors, but they all have one thing in common in that their purpose was, among others, to confirm the veracity of ancient scripture, and to demonstrate that ancient prophecy had been fulfilled. Quite simply, the piece in question doesn’t say what you claim it says – and it doesn’t say what you claim they assert. Your conclusions haven’t been reached through a logical thought process - they’re wishful thinking. However, it appears that’s quite common. Ask any good Muslim and he will tell you the coming of Mohammed was prophesied in the bible. Have you spotted it? The chances are you haven’t – but Muslim scholars have. It seems you’re all at it!
Naomi@
Why should I make things up? It is of no advantage to me. If you want to doubt then do so. I am not forcing you to believe what I say. All I am saying is what I have learned through my study of the Bible. True prophecy does not find its source in the expressed opinions or interpretations of men but, rather, originates with God.
As to the authorship of Colossians - There are no grounds for doubting the authenticity of the letter to the Colossians. Compare this with Ephesians, another of Paul's letters and you will see there is quite a similarity.
With regard to the four gospels, although they differ at times in their presentation of details, they do not contradict one another, even as two witnesses to a traffic accident do not contradict each other when one says that a red car coming from the left hit a green car coming from the right, whereas the other says that a Mercedes driving south hit a Renault going north. The fact that the Gospels differ in minor details strongly indicates that they are true. Had their writers wanted to deceive people into believing a myth, they would certainly have coordinated their stories very closely.
Why should I make things up? It is of no advantage to me. If you want to doubt then do so. I am not forcing you to believe what I say. All I am saying is what I have learned through my study of the Bible. True prophecy does not find its source in the expressed opinions or interpretations of men but, rather, originates with God.
As to the authorship of Colossians - There are no grounds for doubting the authenticity of the letter to the Colossians. Compare this with Ephesians, another of Paul's letters and you will see there is quite a similarity.
With regard to the four gospels, although they differ at times in their presentation of details, they do not contradict one another, even as two witnesses to a traffic accident do not contradict each other when one says that a red car coming from the left hit a green car coming from the right, whereas the other says that a Mercedes driving south hit a Renault going north. The fact that the Gospels differ in minor details strongly indicates that they are true. Had their writers wanted to deceive people into believing a myth, they would certainly have coordinated their stories very closely.
Truthabounds, //True prophecy does not find its source in the expressed opinions or interpretations of men//
But that’s exactly what you are doing, as is every other Christian sect. What you have learnt is what you want to believe – and that applies to all of you – not forgetting Islam’s claim to the prophecy of the arrival of Mohammed, of course. Quite simply the bible doesn’t correspond to your claims. Anyone reading it for the first time, without instruction, would find it impossible to reach the conclusions you’ve reached. You're listening to men who think they know more about it than anyone else - and they don't.
But that’s exactly what you are doing, as is every other Christian sect. What you have learnt is what you want to believe – and that applies to all of you – not forgetting Islam’s claim to the prophecy of the arrival of Mohammed, of course. Quite simply the bible doesn’t correspond to your claims. Anyone reading it for the first time, without instruction, would find it impossible to reach the conclusions you’ve reached. You're listening to men who think they know more about it than anyone else - and they don't.
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