Islam in action yet again ...attack on Danish cartoonist.

[birdie1971]

Once again, the religion of peace shows its true colours.

http://news.bbc.co.uk...ld/europe/8437652.stm

[naomi24]

Hardly a council estate scenario, Everton. Of the billion or so Muslims in the world, according to you and jno, very few agree with the 'deadly clique' you mention, and if that's true, then it shouldn't be too difficult for that billion or so Muslims to expose the troublemakers - but they don't.

[beso]

This is not just a Moslem problem. There are also many cases of Christian nutters wreaking havoc. Many have said they did things because God told them to do so. Mark Chapman killed John Lennon under God's guidance. A number the western leaders who formed the Coalition of the Willing trusted their prayers to God while ignore the correct information provided from weapons inspectors in Iraq.

The problem is religion is general. Religious philosophy teaches that a person should be guided by God so it is easy for anyone to justify any action in this context.

Recent scientific research has demonstrated that religious beliefs closely parallel personal beliefs. Influencing the personal beliefs will influence the perception of religious "truths" . This is why there are so many interpretations of religous philosophies.

Hardly surprising then that religion is frequently used as an excuse for atrocities. It has been this way at least since the Hewbrews massacred hundreds of thousands of people when they invaded the Promised Land.

[123everton]

Well it is a reasonable scenario, an estate with several thousand people will have within it fifty or so people making trouble, try getting the neighbours to speak up and identify them.
Trouble is also, they don't walk around with a placard saying I'm a terrorist come join me, the latest attempted bomber even his own father tried to stop him by reporting him, is that action not worthy of praise?
Again I'll ask, because all I see is rhetoric, what should be done about the Muslims?
I'll ask the question in a minute on a separate thread.

[123everton]

Beso how many people have died because of politics?

[fredpuli47]

Why did Hitler want the Jews killed? Was that for economic or political reasons ? Even in countries which Germany had not thereto ruled, and whose Jews could not have been responsible for Germany's woes ? He didn't use the excuse of religion but he didn't have to. In bygone ages, he could have done,and people did.

Presumably the Christian groups that attack abortion clinics or murder doctors involved in abortion are of a like mind, with a shared Christian ideology,and act and speak for all Christians. And Irish Catholics and Irish Protestants who were murdered simply for being that or marrying or going out with someone of the opposite Christian church were killed by people speaking and acting for their own faith.These Moslems are adopting a comvemient view of their own faith to fit and express their own anger and mental state.Their mental state has nothing to do with the religion itself. They merely adopt their faith as a 'reason'. for expressing themselves in that manner.

[Lonnie]

One thing leads to another, The fact is, in this present day, the majority of terrorist atrocities are committed by Muslims, and the 'peaceful' Muslims, bar a few, do and say nothing, so in reality, they are just as guilty.

[keyplus90]

I know people talk about right of free speech, but does free speech mean you can do and say anything in the world possible. Would you like if someone says bad things about your mother, father or anyone you respect and love? Like it or not but Muslims like and love Muhammad (pbuh) more than that. Although Muslims respect all of the prophets without any distinction but how many times people have seen cartoons (like those) or statements about say Moses (pbuh) for example or any respected person of any other religion. Reason is very simple that there is nothing wrong in offending Muslims but don’t offend any other religion.

As for main stream Muslims not standing up against fundamentalism, they are not standing shoulder to shoulder with these people either. Although they do believe that world should try sorting issues few Muslims are facing over decades. Then who is suffering more in this so called war on terrorism? Most of the Muslim countries.

Pakistan has pushed their 150K army to sort problems mainly created by Americans (in recent or far past), Pakistan has lost more security personnel than any other countries collectively have done. And that does not include civilians killed. USA are willing to talk to Taliban in Afghanistan because they have realised they can't win the war, but they want Pakistan to "DO MORE" and these things are recruiting more foot soldiers for the extremists. All these problems can be sorted with only two things.

1- Issues and resolutions lying in the cold storage of UNO in regard to few Muslim countries should be dealt with.

2- American should accept that 9/11 was an inside job and Bush’s war on terrorism had no other reason but to occupy Oil. So they should pull their troops from Iraq and Afghanistan and let them decide their own future.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, //does free speech mean you can do and say anything in the world possible.//

Apparently so, unless it concerns Islam. This from the link:

//Al-Shabab spokesman Sheikh Ali Muhamud Rage told AFP news agency: "We appreciate the incident in which a Muslim Somali boy attacked the devil who abused our prophet Mohammed and we call upon all Muslims around the world to target the people like him. //

It appears you have no complaints about incitement to murder, Keyplus. You and that spokesman may have unbending respect for your prophet, but it is quite simply immoral to DEMAND that everyone else, on pain of death, shares that respect. To use your terminology, like it or not, they don't, and Islam must accept that. By defending this action, you are condoning attempted murder.

As for 9/11, whatever your political conclusions, those planes were flown into the Twin Towers by Muslims in the name of Allah, and they slaughtered 3000 innocent people in the process - and that is indefensible.

Incidentally, if you'd care to search google you'll find plenty of cartoons relating to the biblical prophets, so your observations regarding the ridicule of other religions are completely false - and you know it.

[Ankou]

some do protest and go some way to alienating themselves from extremism. but as jno says, this rarely makes the news headlines that makes you froth at the mouth.

http://www.minhaj.org...ran-Ulama-Council.htm

if as you argue, this somaliian represents one side of the whole of global islam, then perhaps muhammad tahir ul qadri represents the other.

[KARL]

I tend to agree with the notion that the question is too simplistic at its core. There are countless fundamentalist Christian groupings in the USA alone, some of which are directly responsible for violent crime (i.e. terrorism) within that country and even have inspired/instigated the same beyond their borders (anti-abortion for one). We should not on that basis start screaming about barbaric Christianity and this question/statement is similarly of dubious merit. It is relatively easy to identify the objectionable minority within the whole of any nation/faith/group of any kind and we should not allow ourselves to slip into sweeping bigotry. Personally, I think the time is rapidly approaching when the perfectly decent and overwhelming majority of Muslims will at last throw off the moral blackmail they live under. Unlike in all mainstream Christian communities, they mostly suffer in silence (so far) the oppression of the taboo: Thou shalt not cast aspersions on anyone who professes to be religious (i.e. Muslim religious) - no matter how much of a charlatan, ego centric, or downright evil person he is (and, yes, the vast majority of them are men, not women, although they too have opportunists among them who fall for the lure of power with very few limits).

[naomi24]

If you're talking to me, Ankou, you're mistaken on two counts. Firstly, I haven't promulgated that argument, and secondly I never froth at the mouth.

[Ankou]

then why assume i was talking to you ?

[naomi24]

Oh, so you weren't, Ankou. Fair enough. My mistake.

[keyplus90]

First of all having unbending respect and having no respect are common things but having no respect and then going onto show disrespect where it has nothing to do with you directly is something completely different. In 9th century few Christian monks known as martyrs of Cordova started a sort of revolt and they used to go in front of the “Qazi” court and say bad things about Muhammad (pbuh) and although they were denounced by the bishop of Cordova but this martyrdom pushed them into doing something of which the punishment even then was death.

Reason of telling this is, that Muslims don’t use disrespectful words for others respected so they don’t want others to do that and that is where free speech has a limit. Now martyrs of Cordova had an objective and they were not afraid of dying for that. if someone wants to be a martyr like the ones in Cordova due to some sort of objective then should stand up for their words and be ready for any consequences. Like it or not but that’s the way it is.

Off the topic but Naomi –Can you clarify these three points and I will agree with whatever you said,

1- Give me any other example where someone with only six months experience on a one engine training plane can fly a commercial airliner into a building like that was done. Mind you I have spoken to at least three pilot (so many around me as I am just outside Heathrow) and none of them believes it.

2- Give me one other example where a building collapsed after fire the way twin towers did.

3- And most importantly give me one example in the history of aviation disasters where a whole plane just evaporated.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, //Muslims don’t use disrespectful words for others// Really? Well, if you and the fellow in the link are anything to go by, some of them clearly go a bit further than that. They advocate killing people who disagree with them - and you can't get more disrespectful than that!

What gives you the right to say 'like it or not but that's the way it is'? The world outside Islam doesn't believe what you believe, thank God(?). It doesn't come under the jurisdiction of Islam and therefore it isn't obliged to respect it. Yes, we do have freedom of speech, but left to your devices, that freedom would very swiftly be annihilated. Furthermore, how can you expect any reasonable, rational, person to respect your opinions, or when we have to listen to the garbage you propound, your prophet? The answer to that is because you are not reasonable or rational yourself, but you are so indoctrinated you don't realise it.

cont...

[naomi24]

...cont

As for your questions, I am not a pilot, nor an expert in aviation, and neither am I a structural engineer - and neither are you. One thing I would say though - if there was a qualified pilot who was under threat aboard a plane, I don't believe it would be too difficult for a terrorist with 6 months training to guide it to its target. Additionally, if there were explosives in those buildings, which is what you have suggested in the past, and which is what I presume you are suggesting now, my impression would be that Muslim terrorists working in those buildings placed them there and detonated them at the appropriate time. That wouldn't have been difficult in a time before security was so keenly employed prior to 9/11.

Keyplus, you never cease to disgust me. You deny that Muslims are responsible for the terrorist attacks, for the murder of innocent hostages such as Ken Bigley, or for any of the other related atrocities we are now seeing in this world; you advocate the murder of people who criticise your prophet, and you offer 9th century anecdotes to illustrate your antiquated thought processes. Well, we are living in the 21st century, not the 9th, and you and the people who think like you are, in my opinion, not only an ever-increasing danger to the rest of humanity, but a complete blight on this world, and a total disgrace to civilised society. Birdie used perfectly appropriate wording for this question - 'the religion of peace shows its true colours.' You've certainly shown yours.

[keyplus90]

Nomi - I disgust you or whatever, I have no more to say than what I have said over the 2 years. Now just give me sensible answer to my questions above or just shut up.

Muslims working there must have planted devices is as ridiculous as you could get. Did they evaporated a whole plain outside pentagon. Give me sensible answers or go and hide somewhere.

[naomi24]

Oh dear. I've upset you because I don't believe your conspiracy theories - and of course no Muslim would ever have had the opportunity to plant explosives anywhere. Nice post by the way. Very informative.