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Catholics getting communion
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Hi all I've noticed that some Catholics when going up to get communion don't always drink the wine but they do eat the bread, why is that?
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Just popping back to supply some straightforward historical facts:
It is perfectly logical for Christians to abstain from communion because it is, in fact, a pagan ritual, called The Lord�s Supper, which was practised in honour of pagan god-men such as Mithras, Dionysus et al long before Jesus� supposed time. I may have mentioned these words before (though not to this audience)
�He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will make one with me and I with him, the same shall not know salvation.�
Sounds very Jesus-like, but they are the words of Mithras. Compare them with John 6.53 and John 6.56 and you�ll see that Jesus� script (or, rather, that of the author of John) was written by Mithras years before.
The ritual was introduced into Christianity by Paul in I Corinthians 11.23 et seq. where he says that he �received it of the Lord� i.e. in a dream or vision. Rather strange, surely, that Jesus should have chosen such a roundabout way of purveying the information when (Christians believe) there had been 11 eye-witness disciples knocking around in the 20 years or so between the event and Paul�s writings.
The early Church disliked the pagan term �The Lord�s Supper� and decided to call it by the Greek word for the innocent and charming ceremony that preceded orthodox Jewish meals, whereby the host would bless the food and the wine, as a thank-you to God, before handing it round. That word was �eucharist�. If there was a Last Supper and Jesus performed some ceremony that is what it would have been. The idea that he would have gone all pagan is ridiculous.
So if you want to perpetuate this piece of paganism then step forward to the altar and do your bit. But if you want to remain a pure Christian then stay in your seat and put on a knowing smile.
It is perfectly logical for Christians to abstain from communion because it is, in fact, a pagan ritual, called The Lord�s Supper, which was practised in honour of pagan god-men such as Mithras, Dionysus et al long before Jesus� supposed time. I may have mentioned these words before (though not to this audience)
�He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will make one with me and I with him, the same shall not know salvation.�
Sounds very Jesus-like, but they are the words of Mithras. Compare them with John 6.53 and John 6.56 and you�ll see that Jesus� script (or, rather, that of the author of John) was written by Mithras years before.
The ritual was introduced into Christianity by Paul in I Corinthians 11.23 et seq. where he says that he �received it of the Lord� i.e. in a dream or vision. Rather strange, surely, that Jesus should have chosen such a roundabout way of purveying the information when (Christians believe) there had been 11 eye-witness disciples knocking around in the 20 years or so between the event and Paul�s writings.
The early Church disliked the pagan term �The Lord�s Supper� and decided to call it by the Greek word for the innocent and charming ceremony that preceded orthodox Jewish meals, whereby the host would bless the food and the wine, as a thank-you to God, before handing it round. That word was �eucharist�. If there was a Last Supper and Jesus performed some ceremony that is what it would have been. The idea that he would have gone all pagan is ridiculous.
So if you want to perpetuate this piece of paganism then step forward to the altar and do your bit. But if you want to remain a pure Christian then stay in your seat and put on a knowing smile.
Partaking in a meal or feast, consisting of food and drink in symbolism is hardly new and nobody above has claimed that Christianity invented it. Your point is based on the asumption that everyone is a cloistered numpty.
Wheeling out the old "the pagans invented it" cliche is a bit infantile isn't it? I imagine cavemen did it in some form or another, an offering to the sun or moon or suchlike.
Wheeling out the old "the pagans invented it" cliche is a bit infantile isn't it? I imagine cavemen did it in some form or another, an offering to the sun or moon or suchlike.
Oh come, Octavius, are you really suggesting that all those fellow communicants of yours who go up for their wafer and wine are fully aware that it is a solidly-established pagan rite that they are celebrating (your reference to cave-men being merely an attempt to dismiss the subject as trivial) and that they are happy about it? How many preachers have you heard saying � Now folks, come to the altar here and celebrate that pagan ritual known as The Lord�s Supper which, Paul tells us, was performed by Jesus at his last supper�?
The question is: did Jesus (if he existed) do it? The evidence is not there and the probability is low.
We have no evidence, only the claim by Paul that he was told it in a dream. Do you believe everything that people experience in dreams? It was, naturally, reported by the later gospel writers, apart from the author of John who rewrote the whole incident.
The probability is low because, looking at the chronology, Paul was writing some 20-25 years after the supposed time of the Last Supper. Which means, any sensible person would think, that during that period, all of Jesus� followers, led by the disciples who had been so instructed, would be practicing that ritual. But there is not a shred of evidence that any of them did. Odd, don�t you think?
And would Jesus have done it anyway? Quite apart from the absurdity of his practising a pagan ritual, such symbolism was anathema to Jews. His disciples would have been both astonished and disgusted.
I know that you don�t like it when historical fact disturbs your faith, Octavius, so why don�t you just settle back into that faith and let those facts pass you by as being of no concern to you? It would be more dignified.
The question is: did Jesus (if he existed) do it? The evidence is not there and the probability is low.
We have no evidence, only the claim by Paul that he was told it in a dream. Do you believe everything that people experience in dreams? It was, naturally, reported by the later gospel writers, apart from the author of John who rewrote the whole incident.
The probability is low because, looking at the chronology, Paul was writing some 20-25 years after the supposed time of the Last Supper. Which means, any sensible person would think, that during that period, all of Jesus� followers, led by the disciples who had been so instructed, would be practicing that ritual. But there is not a shred of evidence that any of them did. Odd, don�t you think?
And would Jesus have done it anyway? Quite apart from the absurdity of his practising a pagan ritual, such symbolism was anathema to Jews. His disciples would have been both astonished and disgusted.
I know that you don�t like it when historical fact disturbs your faith, Octavius, so why don�t you just settle back into that faith and let those facts pass you by as being of no concern to you? It would be more dignified.
I know that your bland assumptions and vastly over-exaggerated generalisations suit your argument, which is why you continually wheel them out. I also know for a fact that you know nothing about me and my historical and theological understanding to have an opinion on whether I accept, reject or deny historical bases against religiosity.
I am content with that and am content with my beliefs and dignity. You have told me nothing new.
I am content with that and am content with my beliefs and dignity. You have told me nothing new.
Well, that's fine Octavius. It wasn't my intention to tell you 'something new' but to explain to those other Christians who believe that Jesus actually performed and promoted The Lord's Supper (the majority) that they needn't worry about whether they take just the wafer or just the wine or both because the rite has nothing to do with Christianity anyway.
I don't actually deal in 'bland assumptions' and 'vastly-exaggerated generalisations' - a fair example there!
I leave that sort of thing to religionists.
I deal in facts and truth, as witness the fact that you have not been able to refute a single thing that I have never said on this subject. But then you never do - always preferring to comment on style (as in your last) rather than substance. 'Twas ever thus...
I don't actually deal in 'bland assumptions' and 'vastly-exaggerated generalisations' - a fair example there!
I leave that sort of thing to religionists.
I deal in facts and truth, as witness the fact that you have not been able to refute a single thing that I have never said on this subject. But then you never do - always preferring to comment on style (as in your last) rather than substance. 'Twas ever thus...
No need at all. Since you agree with my original assertion I'm not sure why you joined the thread.
It should be obvious that I was giving historical facts to those Christians (the overwhelming majority) who believe that The Lord's Supper was something entirely exclusive to Jesus, a ritual that he introduced and performed.
I know that that is not true and so, apparently do, you. But congregations don't, and neither do Church leaders tell them the truth about its origins, giving potential communicants the chance to decide whether to take part or not.
Anyway, I've done what I set out to do, so let's leave it there. Nobody else seems interested anyway!
It should be obvious that I was giving historical facts to those Christians (the overwhelming majority) who believe that The Lord's Supper was something entirely exclusive to Jesus, a ritual that he introduced and performed.
I know that that is not true and so, apparently do, you. But congregations don't, and neither do Church leaders tell them the truth about its origins, giving potential communicants the chance to decide whether to take part or not.
Anyway, I've done what I set out to do, so let's leave it there. Nobody else seems interested anyway!
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