Big Bang/ god question.

[denzil45]

Was it the big bang or was it god? Im not trying to be funny, i only want to know.

[mibn2cweus]

It is one thing to conjecture about what the truth might be and quite another to insist that ones conjecture is the only possible truth. Persuasion may convince one to believe that reality is one thing but the ability to persuade does not necessarily rises above the ease with which another is persuaded in determining what that reality actually is. Ultimately reality is the victor and whose agreement we should seek. To this end we must rely on the only link to reality we possess, a reasoned assessment of that which we perceive, the limited yet bountiful perceptual data we obtain from the world out there.

[dawkins]

Yeah I know its a speculation Clanad. It was actually put forward by Lee Smolin who is a theoretical physicist working on quantum gravity. Physics is still working on its "theory of everything" possibly reconciling quantum mechanics with general relativity. There are many speculations about the nature of quantum gravity as a result of this uncertainty. As stated in the article, Hawkin's speculation that blackholes evaporate is also disputed. Given the gap in knowledge about how things developed in the observable universe and my own 101 understanding of cosmology I'm not going to speculate on the origin of matter, or indeed whether it has an origin.

However, Its quite easy to see that complexity does not originate, it evolves. Heavy elements were not contained in the primeval atom. they developed in the fire then coalesced: simple to complex in gradual stages. Arbitrarily placing a complex designer at the start of that system makes no sense at all, even without speculating about which particular designer, its motives and its origins. A gap in science does not equal a creator.

[Clanad]

I appreciate your candor, dawkins, however your supposition that complexity does not originate, it evolves is in direct opposition to the description of Entropy as enunciated in the Second Law of Thermodynamics, is it not? Or are we going to both disappear down the black hole of argument about a 'closed system'? You're move... (Mine was Queen's Bishop to Queen's Knights pawn)

By the way mibn2cweus (couldn't you come up with an easier name to type?) Explain to me ultimate reality. You say the only link is a "reasoned assessment of that which we perceive"... lots of nice adjectives, but how do you perceive gravity? How do you assess it? What, then is your reasoned assessment. You sound so sure there is no God... you are welcome to that belief but since you do not possess all knowledge (do you?) you can't know that... so it remains, my difficult to spell adversary, nothing more than a 'belief system', no?

[dawkins]

Indeed Clanad and eventually the 2nd law will have us all. I certainly make sure I get some energy on board on a regular basis; This is how a human egg grows into an adult or an acorn into a tree or indeed a cloud of dust and gass into a solar system. the acorn doesn't start off as a tree and waste into an acorn due to 2nd law of thermodynamics. All the system needs is enough energy to do its work. I'm not sure the universe is a closed system, you make that assumption but even if so it had to have sufficient energy to keep its systems in order up until now otherwise the big bang would have been called the big shrink.

[Clanad]

Yes, but dawkins, you miss the point that in order for the acorn, et al to do as you describe it requires energy, as you have also intimated. That energy had to come from some source, no? In doing so, even though the acorn appears to have increased in order, it contributed, significantly to the dis-order of the system. I'm not biologist enough (less that your 101 example) to argue the point, but I think it's possible, the acorn doesn't actually increase in order but simply, following DNA and RNA instructions developed into that which was already inherent... but that's as much of a philosophical debate as scientific, in my opinion...

[mibn2cweus]

Technically the phrase, �ultimate reality� is a redundancy. What I meant in that context is that as cause and effect plays out, the truth of what we believe is thereby proven or disproved. It is through experience with acquiring and applying knowledge that we become skilled at differentiating mistaken beliefs we have adopted from what is real.
Gravity is perceived by observing its effects; throw the ball up, it comes down; jump up, come back down (on your feet usually, with practice.). It was Sir Isaac Newton, I believe, that subsumed much of what is our current concept of gravity but we can demonstrate its existence and effects to ourselves directly through perception and communicate its existence and identity to each other conceptually through showing it�s relationship to each others common experience.

I came to my understanding about what the term �God� refers to out of a necessity to dispel the plethora of contradictory ideas with which that term is widely associated. I am now at the point where I seek understanding of reality through the application of logic to experience. When I lack the knowledge to make a rational decision I seek further knowledge and accept that due to the limitations inherent in human nature (as in all aspects of reality) I will never have all the answers. Knowledge is not evil by virtue of what we do not know. Evil is a refusal to obtain knowledge or to act in accordance with what knowledge we possess. I accept that this is our reality.
cont . . .

[mibn2cweus]

I will leave it at that for now and adjourn you to answer your question, as ultimately we all must, for yourself (each for ourselves). It is not what anyone believes for which we should pass condemnation but for any unjust actions that transpire as a consequence to those beliefs. I regret all that I have failed to provide you with that is essential to answering your question but I will answer as best I am able as time allows. I prefer to view your ideas as a challenge to my understanding than to perceive you as a confrontational adversary. I hope you find my input mutually beneficial.

[mibn2cweus]

Clanad, I double clicked (tapped) on your name, copied and pasted (I hope you do not disapprove). Eye don�t spel 2 wel.

. . . if I had pasted the rest of my answer correctly this would have been on top.

[denzil45]

That was an interesting and varied discission on the big bang theory. Thank you very much for taking the time and patience on this subject. I like many of you will always wonder how it all began but one thing is very clear, the sights and strange phenomina that happen in the universe like new stars being born and super nova ending a stars life will always keep us asking questions. I'll see if i can think of something else to boggle your minds lol.

Keep up the good work.
MAV.

[styley]

That my friend is the million dollar question.

[styley]

I was watching a show about insects and flowers and pollination etc. This particular flower looks exactly like a certain insect in a mating position, so the insect is fooled into thinking its going to a female but when it goes in the flower dumps its pollen onto the insect which it then carries off to another flower. Really makes you think how it all works. Life.