If it was proved that God does not exist.

[Lonnie]

Question for debate,

If it was proven, without a shadow of doubt, that there is not, and never has been the almighty being that we call God, or a creator, people who did not believe, or those that weren't sure, would probably carry on with their lives as normal, but for the believers, worldwide. just what do you think their reaction would be?.

[keyplus90]

And who would decide what is good and what is bad?

[terambulan]

Majority agreed laws would decide good & bad.

[naomi24]

Richard Dawkins is, without doubt, calm in his approach, but having said that, since religion affects non-believers, then atheists have every right to an opinion, and in many instances they have every right to be angry. Perhaps you�ll find this small selection amusing too, Gormless. People die of Aids, and children are born with HIV simply because the Catholic church rejects the use of condoms; and in order to prevent - horror of horrors - pre-marital sex, some Christians denounce the use of the HPV vaccine, preferring instead that girls remain at risk of cancer. And moving on from Christianity, are you quite happy with the treatment of women within Islam, and for suicide bombers to kill thousands in the name of God?

Continued�

[naomi24]

�..Continued

Sam Harris in his Letter to a Christian Nation (which actually addresses all religions) gives an excellent analogy between those of faith and atheists. He says:

�Consider, every devout Muslim has the same reasons for being a Muslim that you have for being a Christian. And yet you do not find their reasons compelling. The Koran repeatedly declares that is is the perfect word of the creator of the universe. Muslims believe this as fully as you believe the Bible�s account of itself���..and any who believes otherwise will spent eternity in hell. Mohammed�s opinion ��. is infallible. Why don�t you lose any sleep over whether to convert to Islam? ��..The truth is you know exactly what it is like to be an atheist with respect to the views of Muslims. Isn�t it obvious that Muslims are fooling themselves? Isn�t it obvious that anyone who thinks that the Koran is the perfect word of the creator of the universe has not read the book critically? Isn�t it obvious that the doctrine of Islam represents a new-perfect barrier to honest enquiry? Yes, these things are obvious. Understand that the way you view Islam is precisely the way devout Muslims view Christianity. And it is the way I view all religions.�

Odd, that Mohammed�s opinion is infallible, just as the Pope�s opinion is infallible. Still amused, Gormless?

Keyplus, how do you think unbelievers decide what is good and what is bad?

[jojojojoanne]

descriptivism/prescriptivism.

[naomi24]

sorry, that should have been 'a near perfect barrier'. not 'new'. Should have scanned it instead of typing it.

[WaldoMcFroog]

KeyPlus, people would use ethics to determine right or wrong, the same as they (mostly) do now, even those of a religious inclination.

The fact is that the majority of ethical responses are very simple to determine: 'Would I like it if it was done to me?'

The Bible's 'Do unto others' reflects this principle, as does the Wiccan notion of "An it harm no one, do what thou wilt".

It's hardly rocket science for the most part and the fact that most religious people today do not practice obviously barbaric teachings from their religious texts shows that most people's so-called morality is actually ethics.

Besides which, your question assumes that a universal, unchanging standard from a deity is necessary and/or good when this is not the case. In fact, it's actually nonsensical.

In Plato's Euthyphro, Plato asked if the commandments of a deity were 'good' just because a deity had commanded them or because the deity recognized what was good and commanded the action accordingly.

If something is good simply because a deity has commanded it, anything could be considered good. Eating babies would have as much moral goodness as not robbing your neighbour's life savings as long as the deity said it was 'good'.

Alternatively, if what is moral is determined by a standard exterior to the deity, then the deity is not the source of what is good and we have no need of it for our moral guidance - we can just go straight to the source.

[Lonnie]

Gormless, the question was if, work on that.

Hi naomi, thanks for answering the question, I think, in the main, you right, but I think before everyone settles down, there may well be a goodly spate of suicides,

of course, for this question, everyone has to accept the given proof.


keyplus, this question is Hypothetical, take it on that basis, I know that the existance of God connot be proven or disproven, but I asked a question, hoping for a reasonable debate, apart from a couple of answers, I probably should have known better.

To everyone who actually hasn't aswered the question, i'm not interested in quotes from scientists, religious books etc, I just want what you think might happen, if it was proven that God did no exist.
I could just as well ask the opposite, but I chose this one.

[Octavius]

I think Lonnie, that I would re-evaluate my beliefs and then move on. My existence, survival and progression in this life has not been because of God, but by my own volition and ambition. Believing in God and all that entails is a part of my life, but not the only part. It is a spiritual support function.

If it was unveiled that there was no God (Heaven forbid!) and this could not be counter claimed, then I would have to deal with it emotionally and spiritually. The way I live my day to day life would remain virtually unchanged, although, I would probably have to bolt my front door so as to avoid all the atheist gangs roaming the streets spreading the �I told you so� message. :o)

[CJ242]

I can't imagine the fallout!! My Grandmother is 91 and as Catholic as you can get. She believes her faith and prayer are the reason good things happen. When I was made redundant last year she went to her priest who gave her a prayer. She was to say a part of this prayer each day for 7 days. The day after she completed this I called her and announced I had a new job.
I am unsure on the whole God/Bible issue, show me proof either way before I make a decision.
But my Grandmothers faith is what keeps her going, if that was taken away I don't think she could cope and I think it would be the same for many who have strong beliefs.

[naomi24]

What do you think would happen, Lonnie? Do you really think that in the certain knowledge that there is no promise of eternal life in heaven for them, people would commit suicide?

[mibn2cweus]

Naomi, Haven't they already, intellectually as well as in spirit?

God is but one manifestation of an inability or refusal to grasp the relationship between consciousness and existence.

Consciousness is an attribute of a specific, highly evolved form of entity that has acquired the means to perceive reality. Consciousness presupposes the prior existence of a reality in which there is something to perceive and from which can arise the existence of an entity with the capacity to perceive it.

It is logically absurd to maintain the belief in a creator of existence or of consciousness as the ability to create presupposes the prior existence of both consciousness and existence as well as the development of the physical and intellectual means to be creative.

If this is not proof that God is a creation of an entity in possession of a mind that is of the mind to personify that which one has not yet learned to understand, then logical rational proof for them has ceased or never been a requirement and is therefore not a possibility. On behalf of such an individual further discussion and debate is pointless and equally illogical by virtue of being devoid of the potential for reaching a meaningful conclusion.

[naomi24]

Yes, they have already committed both intellectual and spiritual suicide, mibs. Corporal suicide would be the final nail in the coffin, so to speak.

[Octavius]

I think by the same token mibs, that people who believe in ghosts and Ouija boards must also be guilty of that �crime�.

[Lonnie]

Thanks Octavius,
An excellent reply, and well thought out.

naomi, yes I do, i've mentioned the death of my brother before, so I won't go into details, but it was faith, the belief in God that kept my mother together. i'm not saying she would have committed suicide, but I honestly do belive, that for some people, to have that faith pulled out from under them, they just wouldn't be able to cope.
They live for God, and the afterlife with God.

[naomi24]

I think you're right, Lonnie - faith does keep some people 'together'. However, you, like Octavius, are very much mistaken in your belief that those who feel there may be some truth in the existence of ghosts, or the ouija board, must necessarily hold some kind of 'faith', and that these things automatically have some relevance to religion and God.

[Octavius]

As mibs said above, if this is not proof that God [transmute for ghost/Ouija] is a creation of an entity in possession of a mind that is of the mind to personify that which one has not yet learned to understand, then logical rational proof for them has ceased or never been a requirement and is therefore not a possibility.

As you demonstrated on the other thread �On behalf of such an individual further discussion and debate is pointless and equally illogical by virtue of being devoid of the potential for reaching a meaningful conclusion.�

[naomi24]

Since 'faith' is not required to consider the possibility that there is some truth in ghosts or ouija boards, we cannot transmute those words for God. Clearly you still haven't got the hang of this concept, but I ascribe that to your pre-conceived religious beliefs . Fortunately with mibs help, in that final sentence you've managed to convey my feelings perfectly, so do leave it at that now and let these good people get back to the question in hand.

[Octavius]

Faith is not mentioned in that sentence. If faith is not required to believe in ghosts and ouija, then what is?

Are you going to tell me that seeing is believing?

[naomi24]

Octavius, do us all a favour. Don't ruin yet another thread with your silly, nonsensical arguments. This is Lonnie's question, so let people answer it.