Crosswords2 mins ago
Is it true?
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Is it true, as is often said "There are no aetheists on a sinking ship".
Or would they call out to God to be saved, at the last minute as the ship was sinking.
Or would they call out to God to be saved, at the last minute as the ship was sinking.
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I last heard it as "There were no atheists in the trenches", which can be shown not to be true.
But I expect it happens. Men's minds do funny things when they are in extremis, such as calling desperately for a mother who had died years before.
I hope, and genuinely believe, that I would not do so. At the same time I hope I'm never in a position to prove it!
But I expect it happens. Men's minds do funny things when they are in extremis, such as calling desperately for a mother who had died years before.
I hope, and genuinely believe, that I would not do so. At the same time I hope I'm never in a position to prove it!
On a different thread I spoke to an atheist who swore he'd not call to God at the end, which is a brave boast because none of us knows how we're going to go.
But to the same end a believer could call out in anguish and anger denouncing God for abandoning them.
I think the atheists in the trenches thing is largely unproveable, I've often seen people do things they'd swore they'd never do and even though I saw them they'll swear they never did.
Churchill once said "a man seldom stumbles upon the truth, but when he does, men, most men, pick themselves up dust themselves down and then carry on as before as though nothing happened."
But to the same end a believer could call out in anguish and anger denouncing God for abandoning them.
I think the atheists in the trenches thing is largely unproveable, I've often seen people do things they'd swore they'd never do and even though I saw them they'll swear they never did.
Churchill once said "a man seldom stumbles upon the truth, but when he does, men, most men, pick themselves up dust themselves down and then carry on as before as though nothing happened."
An Atheist was being chased by a huge Grizzley. and just as the Bear was about to strike, the Atheist shouted 'God'.
As he said it, everything around froze, and a voice from the Heavens said, 'can I now count you among the belivers'?.
The Atheist said, 'it would be hypocritical of me after all these years to suddenly change, but couldn't you make the Bear a Christian instead'?.
God said 'What a good idea, i'll do that then'
Everything unfroze, and the Atheist saw the Bear put his paws together, and then the Bears said,
I thank you Oh Lord, for this good meal I am about to recieve.
As he said it, everything around froze, and a voice from the Heavens said, 'can I now count you among the belivers'?.
The Atheist said, 'it would be hypocritical of me after all these years to suddenly change, but couldn't you make the Bear a Christian instead'?.
God said 'What a good idea, i'll do that then'
Everything unfroze, and the Atheist saw the Bear put his paws together, and then the Bears said,
I thank you Oh Lord, for this good meal I am about to recieve.
I definately consider myself to be an atheist but this question got me thinking.
The sinking ship is a bad example for me as I don't believe in a supernatural force being able to reverse the forces of nature and save the ship. However if I was floating on a bit of wreckage, on my own I'm pretty sure I'd appeal to higher forces at some point however I don't think this constitues my rational mind believing in any form of a God that I can influence with my pleas.
I am human I guess and awe of the universe is pretty much hard-wired in.
The sinking ship is a bad example for me as I don't believe in a supernatural force being able to reverse the forces of nature and save the ship. However if I was floating on a bit of wreckage, on my own I'm pretty sure I'd appeal to higher forces at some point however I don't think this constitues my rational mind believing in any form of a God that I can influence with my pleas.
I am human I guess and awe of the universe is pretty much hard-wired in.
keyplus, the two people you quote are giving you their own personal experiences.
Read the question again... which asks whether there are NO atheists on a sinking ship. You say you believe that.
I ask again, on what basis do you believe it?
If you want it put bluntly: how many sinking ships have you been on board? What surveys did you do of the passengers who were about to drown?
Facts are facts, keyplus, whether to me or anyone else.
Read the question again... which asks whether there are NO atheists on a sinking ship. You say you believe that.
I ask again, on what basis do you believe it?
If you want it put bluntly: how many sinking ships have you been on board? What surveys did you do of the passengers who were about to drown?
Facts are facts, keyplus, whether to me or anyone else.
123everton, what on earth has that got to do with it? I have never said 'no' to the original question about sinking ships. And even if I had been in such a ship how on earth would I know what all the others were thinking?
When it comes to the trenches, I'm very relieved, as I'm sure you are, to say that WWI was many years before I was born.
But I was recently involved in presenting a show (amateur) to recognise the 90th anniversary of the Armistice. During my research I found letters written from the front to relatives back home. Many of them expressed the view that the writer was quite sure that he was going to die very soon and was desperate. Some said that they were praying to God, many did not mention God, and others said that they now no longer believed in God, having seen what they had seen.
So how keyplus can be so sure about it all is beyond me, as is the sense in your question.
When it comes to the trenches, I'm very relieved, as I'm sure you are, to say that WWI was many years before I was born.
But I was recently involved in presenting a show (amateur) to recognise the 90th anniversary of the Armistice. During my research I found letters written from the front to relatives back home. Many of them expressed the view that the writer was quite sure that he was going to die very soon and was desperate. Some said that they were praying to God, many did not mention God, and others said that they now no longer believed in God, having seen what they had seen.
So how keyplus can be so sure about it all is beyond me, as is the sense in your question.
You asked Keyplus how many sinking ships he'd been aboard as a means to counter his contention, I asked similar of you.
I feel the questioner is talking of the moments before death, so letters home when fit and well even though hope was low don't count, but I do agree none of us know if we'll die cursing or commending the Lord.
I feel the questioner is talking of the moments before death, so letters home when fit and well even though hope was low don't count, but I do agree none of us know if we'll die cursing or commending the Lord.
Shutz I am sure there are many atheists who have embraced their existential angst and die in acceptance. And there are many tales of people who have cried out to God in extremis and have been saved.
But because of the nature of your question I dont think it can ever be proved or disproved.
Even if you found an atheist who said "I was at teh point of death and never cried out for God and was nevertheless saved" a person of faith could well argue that God had nevertheless saved them for some mission or encounter in the future, or that their time was simply not up yet.
But because of the nature of your question I dont think it can ever be proved or disproved.
Even if you found an atheist who said "I was at teh point of death and never cried out for God and was nevertheless saved" a person of faith could well argue that God had nevertheless saved them for some mission or encounter in the future, or that their time was simply not up yet.
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