How Many Onn Here Thinkthis Is...
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cosmology
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Has anyone been watching that program about Stephen Hawking? It's fascinating stuff - string theory, black holes, dark matter, branes etc. The only thing is I find myself concluding it's all basically just the same as religion - ie a load of b0llox that we've invented in order to explain things that we don't understand.
What do you reckon?
What do you reckon?
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Everton123 has made an important analogy, between people of religion, and the rest.
Yes, the rest are composed of people like Naomi and Waldo, who are thinking atheists, and consider their atheism carefully.
Not every non religious person is like that. The "new" religion is a hotch potch of new age, eastern mysticism, consumerism, and the greens to name just a few.
The high priests of the new religion are celebrities, scientists, and things like red nose day etc have supplanted putting money on the collection plate.
O.K. you can find loopholes in this analogy, but in general terms you can catch my drift, and what Everton123 has said, is not far off the mark.
Yes, the rest are composed of people like Naomi and Waldo, who are thinking atheists, and consider their atheism carefully.
Not every non religious person is like that. The "new" religion is a hotch potch of new age, eastern mysticism, consumerism, and the greens to name just a few.
The high priests of the new religion are celebrities, scientists, and things like red nose day etc have supplanted putting money on the collection plate.
O.K. you can find loopholes in this analogy, but in general terms you can catch my drift, and what Everton123 has said, is not far off the mark.
123everton - you're making a huge assumption that there's a relationship between atheists and the environmental movement.
In cases there may be but they are not intrinsically linked and one most certainly does not inform the other.
Origin Of The Species - you should go for it, criticise all you like! Its NOT an atheist's bible, its a theory, ready and waiting to be critiqued, disproved or improved upon. Unlike 'the' bible I should add.
In cases there may be but they are not intrinsically linked and one most certainly does not inform the other.
Origin Of The Species - you should go for it, criticise all you like! Its NOT an atheist's bible, its a theory, ready and waiting to be critiqued, disproved or improved upon. Unlike 'the' bible I should add.
It's not so much that one can find loopholes in the analogy so much as one can get to France by high speed train through it, Theland. It's a hole with the extremely infrequent passing whiff of almost adequate analogy occasionally found at the outer rim.
You and Everton have constructed something so vague that you can claim pretty anything you like as being causally linked to atheism and an analog to something religious without ever being burdened with having to support those contentions.
You and Everton have constructed something so vague that you can claim pretty anything you like as being causally linked to atheism and an analog to something religious without ever being burdened with having to support those contentions.
XL what I'm trying to express is the God sized hole that exists within us al that we choose to fill with other things", as Salman Rushdie said
People who profess no belief in any God will evangelise their views on global warming as according to the Arch Bishops of climatology from the new "church" of science to the point of telling everyone else how to live their lives (not a bit like preachy religion) there was a series of letters the other week in "The Metro" about the wastefulness of charging one's phone whilst asleep (gimme peace), and then there's the great patio heater debate and so on, and so on it's all just neo-puritanism to me.
That's the irony of it all, this modern secular society sleepwalking into old fashioned religious ways with self denial, and punishment (via taxes).
We should all be very grateful, as it's for our own good.
There's nothing overtly wrong in this behaviour (it's a free country) just don't try to make out we're really that different...
People who profess no belief in any God will evangelise their views on global warming as according to the Arch Bishops of climatology from the new "church" of science to the point of telling everyone else how to live their lives (not a bit like preachy religion) there was a series of letters the other week in "The Metro" about the wastefulness of charging one's phone whilst asleep (gimme peace), and then there's the great patio heater debate and so on, and so on it's all just neo-puritanism to me.
That's the irony of it all, this modern secular society sleepwalking into old fashioned religious ways with self denial, and punishment (via taxes).
We should all be very grateful, as it's for our own good.
There's nothing overtly wrong in this behaviour (it's a free country) just don't try to make out we're really that different...
It mght be worth quoting what Rushdie now says about his God-shaped hole:
�I used to say: ''there is a God-shaped hole in me.'' For a long time I stressed the absence, the hole. Now I find it is the shape which has become more important.�
and
"I do not need the idea of God to explain the world I live in.".
�I used to say: ''there is a God-shaped hole in me.'' For a long time I stressed the absence, the hole. Now I find it is the shape which has become more important.�
and
"I do not need the idea of God to explain the world I live in.".
Waldo interesting Rushdie quote but he started with a generality and ended with his personal mindset.
I'm still to hear what you think about neo-puritanism and the preachy ways of global warming?
Naomi your loathe to state your views or beliefs in anything so I don't know where that leaves you.
I genuinely don't know what you belive in (I know what you don't belive in) so far all I've gleaned from your musings is that there were no good old days for you as you grew up in poverty, there's no good old days to come because of this government and that you're a Tory and it took you 3 gos to amit that.
Cue toys out the pram.
I'm still to hear what you think about neo-puritanism and the preachy ways of global warming?
Naomi your loathe to state your views or beliefs in anything so I don't know where that leaves you.
I genuinely don't know what you belive in (I know what you don't belive in) so far all I've gleaned from your musings is that there were no good old days for you as you grew up in poverty, there's no good old days to come because of this government and that you're a Tory and it took you 3 gos to amit that.
Cue toys out the pram.
The Rushdie quote is clearly *all* his personal mindset. It didn't stop you using it, though, did it?
As for the neo-puritanism and global warming stuff, it seems to me that you attach far too much importance to some term from the tabloids merely because it has a religious etymology. It doesn't follow that the practice has anything substantially in common with religious puritanism beyond abstinance.
One is (largely if not exclusively) based on the dogmatic adherance to values from a book of highly disputed veracity and unknown authorship on the promise that this behaviour is required, the other appears to be an ethical set of behaviours based on publically available evidence of known methodology and falsifiability and which have clearly defined, measurable and material outcomes.
All this is in addition to the more pertinant point, already made, that there is no atheist position on global warming, so it's meaningless to start with. No one would say, 'i'm an atheist, therefore I must believe in global warming.' The fact that atheists may agree with this does not mean they have to, therefore the analogy has a fatal flaw.
As for the neo-puritanism and global warming stuff, it seems to me that you attach far too much importance to some term from the tabloids merely because it has a religious etymology. It doesn't follow that the practice has anything substantially in common with religious puritanism beyond abstinance.
One is (largely if not exclusively) based on the dogmatic adherance to values from a book of highly disputed veracity and unknown authorship on the promise that this behaviour is required, the other appears to be an ethical set of behaviours based on publically available evidence of known methodology and falsifiability and which have clearly defined, measurable and material outcomes.
All this is in addition to the more pertinant point, already made, that there is no atheist position on global warming, so it's meaningless to start with. No one would say, 'i'm an atheist, therefore I must believe in global warming.' The fact that atheists may agree with this does not mean they have to, therefore the analogy has a fatal flaw.
Luwig, there are numerous pieces of evidence for the big bang.
The most dramatic is that the "echo" that was predicted was measured later to a startling degree of accuracy. There are other pieces of evidence but that's the most stunning.
The program made it a little hard to distinguish stuff that was very speculative (branes) from things that were less so (string theory) to things which are pretty certain (dark matter, black holes etc.)
These are indeed things that we "invent" to explain what we see but unlike religion are consistant with all the other things we know and we actively look for tests to decide whether they are right or wrong.
Not something that's actively encouraged in most churches!
The most dramatic is that the "echo" that was predicted was measured later to a startling degree of accuracy. There are other pieces of evidence but that's the most stunning.
The program made it a little hard to distinguish stuff that was very speculative (branes) from things that were less so (string theory) to things which are pretty certain (dark matter, black holes etc.)
These are indeed things that we "invent" to explain what we see but unlike religion are consistant with all the other things we know and we actively look for tests to decide whether they are right or wrong.
Not something that's actively encouraged in most churches!
123everton - that climate warnings are preachy or a form of neo-puritanism is certainly a reference that I can imagine a god-fearing sort would use.
But the bottom line is that its simply communication. And that trancends religion, races and species.
Its an obvious one to compare with religion because organised religions have been amongst the most effective communicators in the history of humanity.
I work in advertising, preaching if you like, the benefits of buying x,y or z and in the same regard i hear people talking about the 'church of consumerism', etc.
I think its a pretty lame analogy to make with religion though and same with the climate message - its just communication, abeit forceful and strategic - but religion doesn't have the monopoly on that.
But the bottom line is that its simply communication. And that trancends religion, races and species.
Its an obvious one to compare with religion because organised religions have been amongst the most effective communicators in the history of humanity.
I work in advertising, preaching if you like, the benefits of buying x,y or z and in the same regard i hear people talking about the 'church of consumerism', etc.
I think its a pretty lame analogy to make with religion though and same with the climate message - its just communication, abeit forceful and strategic - but religion doesn't have the monopoly on that.
Birds of a feather flock together, people identify themselves in groups whether it be Christian, Muslim or Goth etc.
In the absence of God people express themselves in other ways usually politically or (as I'm demomstrating) via activism.
The film "The Day After Tomorrow" for instance is a part of this popularist mindset, end of timers predict anhialation so do climatologists the imagery and language the style used (by the media, perhaps) is religious the slavish way its adhrents recycle and economise "for the good of the world" the way they berate others for not doing the same these atheists might'nt speak for you, but then again end of timers don't speak for me.
Naomi I can only say with certainty (pretty much) those 3 things, correct me where I'm wrong.
Here's your rattle back. :-)
In the absence of God people express themselves in other ways usually politically or (as I'm demomstrating) via activism.
The film "The Day After Tomorrow" for instance is a part of this popularist mindset, end of timers predict anhialation so do climatologists the imagery and language the style used (by the media, perhaps) is religious the slavish way its adhrents recycle and economise "for the good of the world" the way they berate others for not doing the same these atheists might'nt speak for you, but then again end of timers don't speak for me.
Naomi I can only say with certainty (pretty much) those 3 things, correct me where I'm wrong.
Here's your rattle back. :-)
Bear in mind that atheists don't have a belief in an afterlife in heaven or paradise and that they're concerned with preserving this world, because this world is the only world they will ever have.
If theists are more blase about climate issues that's pretty obvious and understandable. After all, they believe they're going on to somewhere better, so who cares what damage is done here?
Thoughts?
If theists are more blase about climate issues that's pretty obvious and understandable. After all, they believe they're going on to somewhere better, so who cares what damage is done here?
Thoughts?
The day after tomorrow did more harm to the cause of controlling global warming than anything else.
It's appocalyptic view of a sudden change is not one that is realistically supported by the evidence.
This is made worse by the endless stream of drivel that comes out of the media on "Environmental issues" like the way any sudden hot or cold spell leaves commentators diving into a global warming spiel.
However it is real and it is a problem and planting an oak tree everytime you fly and recycling your plastic bags is not going to help.
This lack of understanding and the need the media has to attempt to "explain" a massively complex scientific issue in a 30 second soundbite is what leads to a lot of the ridiculous behaviour everton hints at
It's appocalyptic view of a sudden change is not one that is realistically supported by the evidence.
This is made worse by the endless stream of drivel that comes out of the media on "Environmental issues" like the way any sudden hot or cold spell leaves commentators diving into a global warming spiel.
However it is real and it is a problem and planting an oak tree everytime you fly and recycling your plastic bags is not going to help.
This lack of understanding and the need the media has to attempt to "explain" a massively complex scientific issue in a 30 second soundbite is what leads to a lot of the ridiculous behaviour everton hints at
Speaking personally I'm not blase' about the air I breathe I just wish they'd stop picking my pockets for money, and in terms of an afterlife I'm toast!
Whether it's a marketing strategy or otherwise it has the aura, the essence of religion in it's tone and practices and in the behaviours of it's adherents, dissenters are shouted down, hounded by derision and shunned by a "scientific" community eager for government funding for their own research. Not that the results may help prove the validity of increased taxation. On tthe news today there was an interview with a man who was described as an "environmental activist" I don't know whether he had any faith or not but that was his "brand" if you like, which to me is not unlike my own "brand" Christianity(ish). I believe in reincarnation, which according to some disqualifies me, nuts to all of them!
Atheism, creationism is all pretty much the same to me, it's all belief, same meat different gravy.
How one expresses that belief is when the problems arise.
Whether it's a marketing strategy or otherwise it has the aura, the essence of religion in it's tone and practices and in the behaviours of it's adherents, dissenters are shouted down, hounded by derision and shunned by a "scientific" community eager for government funding for their own research. Not that the results may help prove the validity of increased taxation. On tthe news today there was an interview with a man who was described as an "environmental activist" I don't know whether he had any faith or not but that was his "brand" if you like, which to me is not unlike my own "brand" Christianity(ish). I believe in reincarnation, which according to some disqualifies me, nuts to all of them!
Atheism, creationism is all pretty much the same to me, it's all belief, same meat different gravy.
How one expresses that belief is when the problems arise.
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