Belief Beyond God

[luna-tic]

Is it possible for someone to be born again without the belief in a god, Jesus, scripture or religion?

[Theland]

And leave God out of your life? If you do that, you're in for a shock!

[luna-tic]

Thanks "fender62", I am aware of spiritualism. Maybe I didn't clarify the meaning of the question.
I was not talking just of the physical/non-physical transition of body to spirit and passing into another realm but the atonement of a persons sins or bad ways without the inclusion of another entity or a recognised belief system.

[luna-tic]

Much appreciated "Theland". I'm sure there are many people who may not believe in a god so I suppose all of them are in for a shock. The option does not make a bad person. It only makes some more inquisitive.

[naomi24]

Regretting wrong-doing and knowing the difference between right and wrong doesn't depend upon belief in religion, so in answer to your question, yes, a person can be 'born again' without the belief in god, Jesus, scripture or religion. It's called turning over a new leaf.

[luna-tic]

Thanks "naomi24".
You've hit the nail on the head(No religious pun intended).

[Theland]

According to the New Testament, yes, some people will be in for a shock.
First, what a shock it will be when so called, "religious" people find themselves out of favour, because they neglected to show love and compassion on the poor, the sick, those who are in prison etc.
Then what a shock it will be when others will find Gods' favour, because they always tended to the needs of those worse off than themselves, but never in this earthly life did they ever consider themselves, "religious."

[luna-tic]

I never thought of helping someone as a favour for self-gratification or any other motive, Just because it is the moral thing to do. If I was a person who followed a particular doctrine or path,helping someone would not lend itself to being closer to the path although I could see how that way of thinking would come to pass if initially you were the type who did bad things and never helped anyone then for whatever reason your life was changed by a person who is Christian, Muslim, Catholic or whatever.

[Theland]

luna-tic - There's obviously a lot of atheists who are extremely humanitarian and philanthropic, just as there are Christians, probably all born that way. But, there are people, who have had life changing experiences, by becoming Christians, and turned their lives around, through loving their fellow human beings, whereas before they had been self centred. Quite literally, seeing the light.

[luna-tic]

There is good within us all even if certain circumstances may make others think the contrary.

[Lighter]

Hi Luna-tic - No I don't believe anyone can be born again without believing in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour.
Naomi24 equated being born again with 'turing over a new leaf'.
In the Bible when you become born again you don't turn over a new leaf, God gives you a whole new book!

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." II Cor 5:17

Yes you can regret your wrong doings and try to do what's right, but that doesn't deal with the wrong that has already been done. That's why we need a Saviour.

There is sin in each one of us, whether it is murder or 'white' lies it's still sin, and transgression of God's law.
The Bible say that whosoever breaks any of God's law is guilty of it all, and that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Being born again is realising that you are a sinner, (we all are), recognising that you cannot do one thing to 'make' this up to God, but trusting in what Christ did on the cross taking the punishment of sin for you. God then gives you forgiveness and a new heart. When God looks upon those who are born again He now doesn't see a guilty sinner but the redemption work of Christ.

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" II Cor 5:21

[WaldoMcFroog]

"The Bible say that whosoever breaks any of God's law is guilty of it all"

Yet another example of the Bible being full of fatuous 'logic' then if it (and God) seriously can't differentiate between a child rapist and someone who steals a penny chew.

[mibn2cweus]

God Beyond Belief

Is it possible for someone to believe in a god, Jesus, scripture or religion without aborting reason?

[naomi24]

Lighter, I know a person whom I would consider to be the most 'Christian' person I've ever met - and she knows absolutely nothing about the bible or the teachings of the church. She simply cares enormously about people and works incredibly hard genuinely to benefit her fellow man. I don't know for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that she'll go to heaven before the bible thumpers who bang on about sin and live in fear of the superstitious clap trap of a man-made book about a man-made religion in the selfish hope of saving their own souls.

[naomi24]

mibn2cweus - I think it is possible - but only if you ignore organised religion and are very picky with the scriptures, because once you're into all that, all sense of reason seems to depart . I think Jesus existed, and I think his basic message, to love one another, was good. However, I don't believe he was the son of god, and I don't believe he ever intended a new religion to be created in his name.

[dawkins]

Naomi24, so really you are a humanist. I agree with you and think that a large number of liberal religionists can see scripture as allegorical and live life rationally while enjoying the message and community of the church. Born again tends to indicate a more fundamental approach to christianity. A bit like ex-smokers are often the most vocal anti-smokers, born again christians are the loudest christians. We could spend all day discussing why this is.

If we did a Pascal's wager for the 21st century the best bet would be to keep rational and live life assuming its the only one we'll get. The only afterlife we should be interested in is our progeny.

[naomi24]

Dawkins, I've never thought of myself as a humanist - I don't consider myself to be attached to any sort of label - but I think you're right about Pascal's wager except for your final conclusion - that the only afterlife we should be interested in is our progeny.

From personal experiences it would be impossible for me to deny the existence of an afterlife, but I don't think the afterlife has anything whatsoever to do with religion.

[luna-tic]

Whatever we believe in obviously alters our perception on any given subject but we are all capable of good or bad thoughts, if not actions; but a thought will not harm anyone else until it takes shape as words or actions.
If a book, whether it be the Bible or a self-help style piece of literature can turn our life from one of despair to hope then that is not a bad thing but this is not everyone's way. We would all like to think that morals are inbuilt from birth but that idea would seem strange when the evidence is far from it. Anyone can change their ways and no god, religion or help from others is going to ultimately remove all sin from a person. Help can be offered to anyone but it is a personal choice to receive it and use it wisely.

[naomi24]

Luna, the word sin bothers me because that smacks of religious doctrine and the idea of it is designed solely to instil guilt and fear into people. Most of us know right from wrong, and do our best to live a decent life and that's all we need.
.

[Lighter]

Waldo -
"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." James 2:10

If a man commits murder, and another parks on a double yellow line they have both broken the law. Yes, one is extremely more serious than the other, but technically they are both law breakers.
So all men have broke God's law. The breaking of God's law is sin, for which the penalty is Hell, if we don't ask forgiveness through the Lord Jesus Christ.
God will deal with the various 'degrees' of law breaking as He will 'reward all men according to their works".
God's reasons and judgments are His Own and He certainly doesn't base the criteria on how to judge His creation on the 'logic' of WaldoMcFroog.