Have you seen Fitna?

[chakka35]

I have just watched Geert Wilders' film 'Fitna' and wonder what there is about it that has caused our interfering politicians to ban the man from this country.

Factually you cannot fault it. Without comment it gives us verses from the Quran that call for apalling violence against infidels (which is all non-Muslims), then shows hot-headed imams and others using those verses to incite that violence with the atrocious results that we see all too graphically in news film.

It is, of course, very selective and I have no doubt that there are many Muslims who abhor such evil mindlessness as much as any of us do. But the fact that many German people were appalled by the Holocaust does not mean that we should not draw attention to it.

The only contentious item I could see is at the end, when, having shown all the shouted declarations that Islam will take over the whole world by killing all infidels,
Wilders says that since we put down Nazism and Soviet communism, which also had those aims, should we not put down Islamism?

I find it sad that our goverment has ruined our fine reputaton for freedom of speech and of expression just for this.

What do others think? (You can see the film by Googling 'fitma'.)

[Verix]

I wonder, have you viewed any of the responses on youtube which show the piece to be mis-informed and more dangerous that the subject matter.

Though i agree; not allowing Geert in was the wrong thing to do.

[DanAB]

yes i have seen it. i dunno exactly what to make of it, however for all we know these quotes could of been taken out of context.

[chakka35]

DanAB, it's difficult to see how quotes which very specifically call for violence can be taken out of context. Certainly the people who use those quotes to incite and commit violence take them at their face value - which is what matters, isn't it?

Veris, no, I haven't looked at the responses because I have never looked at youtube. I must broaden my horizons and do so.

[Octavius]

We wouldn�t let someone come into our parliament to show a film containing anti-Semitism messages and calls to rid the world of Judaism like Yusuf al-Qaradawi who was banned, or conversely someone like Moshe Feiglin who is also banned. So I guess this is the same thing.

It was just a bit unfortunate and probably embarrassing for the two peers, that Wilders decided to ignore the ban and bring a whole film crew along to publicise the �event� of being barred at the airport.

I haven�t seen the film, but am capable of making my own mind up about the world and the people in it.

[kdawg]

I watched the film last night. Too me it was an awkward unconvincing piece of propoganda and merely portrays extremists views, to which Wilder views belong in their own right. Yes, it was inciteful however it is not the state's position to refuse him entry ; you cannot regulate freedom of speech.

[Prescott]

I also watched the film and found it very disturbing. However, I certainly did not consider it was inciting anything. It was factual and well put together in a kind of way.

If the Government had really wanted to keep Wilder quiet they should just have allowed him in with no fuss. Free speech is a basic freedom of our country and you really should not ban an elected politician from a friendly nation just because you don't like him.

[naomi24]

Chakka, I didn't think it reasonable, or rational, to comment until I had seen it and could make an informed judgement - so I've watched it. Much of its content I've seen before, and I don't think there can be any doubt that it's factual. I can't see that any of the quotes have been taken out of context either. I think the analogy you've made with the holocaust is absolutely spot on, and I agree with you completely.

[chakka35]

Thanks, naomi, and others who think that our freedoms are robust enough to cope.

Octavius, I'm not sure what point you are making. That we shouldn't allow a film into this country which incites hatred and violence against non-Muslims? If so, I don't agree with you. We're strong enough to take that.

Or do you think that the film incites hatred and violence against Islam? If so, then I suggest you see it.

[Gromit]

I have seen it. This kind of thing is not clever and anyone taken in by such simple propaganda must be lacking basic analytical skills.

The Bible, as well as the Koran delivers equally inciteful passages...

For example, You show film of some Iraqi 'friendly fire' victims, juxtaposed with audio from a US preacher quoting the following...

March against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

The scripture will be straight out of the bible, and the film of the dead and suffering will be true, but to combine the two is dishonest. that is what Wilders has done. Take a Koranic text out of context, use it over a film of a terrorist attack, and claim the two are connected.

Justh a simplistic piece of propaganda.

[Octavius]

Chakka, unfortunately the surf rangers prevent me from doing so at the moment, perhaps later.

No, from what I understand he wants to rid the world of Islam. I am not saying he would do this by violent means, but there are those amongst us that would take that message and use violence. In the same way many people in the UK would assume that when a Muslim cleric starts hollarin� from the mosque steps, that a handful of the people listening would take it all literally and act violently.

As a general opinion, it would have been far better from him to come and then go, as he did in December and none of us would have been any the wiser. Many in the UK hadn�t even heard of him. All in all, it seems to have worked out quite well for Wilders, his film is probably now the most googled piece of propaganda in the world today.

I agree with Gromit completely.

[naomi24]

Gromit, propaganda perhaps, but factual nonetheless. Combining passages from the Koran with images of atrocities committed in the name of Islam isn�t dishonest. It portrays fact. Verses from the Koran did incite the perpetrators to commit those acts - and they will continue to incite people to commit such acts.

[Octavius]

That is the point I made.

[naomi24]

Really? How come you said you agreed with Gromit then?

[Octavius]

�. Verses from the Koran did incite the perpetrators to commit those acts - and they will continue to incite people to commit such acts. ..... Just simple propaganda

The world is full of fools who will stare up at these sorts of films with glazed eyes and a sense of awe and righteousness. Then walk out the door and do something about it. Usually aggressive.

I know you are going to say I haven�t seen it how can I comment blah-de-blah etc etc, but honestly, I feel much the same way about all of Michael Moore�s stuff. Simple stuff for simple people unable to think for themselves.

Nighty night.

[Gromit]

naomi24

How do you think this would be received if presented before the Iraqi or islamic public.

God says kill all Iraqis

The picture is American troops in action, and the quote is from the Bible, it has to be true that God commands us to kill Iraqis, Right?

[Gromit]

Do you think that is a fair representaion of Christianity?

[naomi24]

Octavius, no, I wasn't going to say that. I was going to say 'ok then'. Night.

Gromit, no it doesn't have to be true that God commands us to kill Iraqis, and whilst that scenario may lead some Iraqis to believe it, we don't. However, the Koran does command believers to kill the infidel - and the FACT is that some of them do believe it and take it at its word. Your analogy doesn't work.

[Gromit]

naomi24

Confronted with anti-christian propagana you write...

whilst that scenario may lead some Iraqis to believe it, we don't.

Muslims confront by anti-islamic propaganda in Fitna could quite easily similarly dismiss it by saying...

whilst that scenario may lead some Westerners to believe it, we don't.

The Koran did not command people to fly planes into the World Trade Centre. Muslims were as horrified by it as much as anyone else. The only people who believe this medieval scripture urges such an action are al qaeda and people such as yourself.

al qadea are wrong, and so are you.

[naomi24]

Oh dear. You regularly succeed is missing the point, don't you, Gromit. This is the second time in about the last week with me. Civilised debate clearly isn't your forte, but not to worry. Bye bye.

[Gromit]

naomi24

Er...? where have I not been civil? Saying you are wrong is not being uncivil.

Anyhow, Bye.