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Why does naomi not trust MMR?
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naomi, in a separate thread you said that you don't trust MMR. What follows is not just to show my disagreement with you, but to make a very important point which I'll leave until last. Here goes:
No-one has shown any connection between MMR and autism. One doctor and a small team (who have since deserted him) made that suggestion but produced no evidence. His 'results' were impossible to reproduce, his methods were shown to be deeply flawed and his motives suspect. Not since Piltdown Man was revealed as a hoax has any scientific theory been so comprehensively debunked.
By 2001, 500,000,000 MMR jabs had been given world-wide (heaven knows what the figure is now) with no detectable adverse effects; autism surfaces just as often in children that have not had the jab as in those that have.
In the USA, where they are notoriously neurotic about their health, they have such confidence in it that in some states you may not send your children to school until they have had the jab.
That autism sometimes appears after the jab does not mean that it appears because of it . That is the old post-hoc-ergo-propter-hoc fallacy. Since the vaccination takes place early in a child's life it precedes all the other ailments that that child might later suffer from. Do we blame chicken-pox, asthma, leukaemia, migraines etc. on MMR? Of course not. So why autism?
cont'd�
No-one has shown any connection between MMR and autism. One doctor and a small team (who have since deserted him) made that suggestion but produced no evidence. His 'results' were impossible to reproduce, his methods were shown to be deeply flawed and his motives suspect. Not since Piltdown Man was revealed as a hoax has any scientific theory been so comprehensively debunked.
By 2001, 500,000,000 MMR jabs had been given world-wide (heaven knows what the figure is now) with no detectable adverse effects; autism surfaces just as often in children that have not had the jab as in those that have.
In the USA, where they are notoriously neurotic about their health, they have such confidence in it that in some states you may not send your children to school until they have had the jab.
That autism sometimes appears after the jab does not mean that it appears because of it . That is the old post-hoc-ergo-propter-hoc fallacy. Since the vaccination takes place early in a child's life it precedes all the other ailments that that child might later suffer from. Do we blame chicken-pox, asthma, leukaemia, migraines etc. on MMR? Of course not. So why autism?
cont'd�
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ps Lottie, I imagine she did what she did to make money, but it seems perfectly possible that she wanted it to raise her kids in more comfort, which would have been to Shannon's benefit. Not likely, but possible. I am not defending what she did, but asking how far the state should have been able to go to prevent it happening in the first place. Just what right does it have to overrule parents?
naomi, I think the state has a right to intervene for the safety of all citizens, including children (including baby P - I see the social services boss has been sacked now). But that means that if the state decides MMR jabs are a must, then it can require everyone to have them. There's no right or wrong answer on this one, only what people believe, but it's a serious matter and I'm somewhat surprised to see myself described as crazy for mentioning it. My only question is whether people think it should be one law for them and another for everyone else.
jno, to assume that because I said people should be able to make the best choices for their children, is a warrant to assume I mean one rule for me and one rule for them (including those that abuse their children) is a naturalistic fallacy.
No, if the MMR vaccine was a must and say triple jab outlawed, then there would be no alternative choice.
No, if the MMR vaccine was a must and say triple jab outlawed, then there would be no alternative choice.
jno, of course the law has to apply to everyone, but I would find state control to this degree very worrying indeed, because for one thing, I would have to ask 'where is it going to end?' It's a frightening thought. At the moment, parents have a choice where MMR is concerned - the triple vaccine or separate vaccines - and there's nothing wrong with that. You mentioned Shannon Matthews and Baby P - both known to Social Services - and horror stories of appalling failings arise time and time again - so how could any good parent confidently put the welfare of their child in the hands of the state? I wouldn't.
And besides, if the State were in charge of anything they would only choose the most economic options.
You will never convince me that the MMR jab has been proved safe. We are only told what they want us to believe and economics is the prime reason. Because it is only a tiny percentage of kids that have suffered, it doesn't matter to the Government. If it were a larger proportion they would have to be more truthful.
You will never convince me that the MMR jab has been proved safe. We are only told what they want us to believe and economics is the prime reason. Because it is only a tiny percentage of kids that have suffered, it doesn't matter to the Government. If it were a larger proportion they would have to be more truthful.
i agree with chakka, and think the comments are very well put.
The doctor who started all this, who has, i think, finally been struck off, should be locked up.
I am also saddened that the debate is still going on.
I do, however ,think that, it is better for parents to go for the seperate jabs than none at all. I think the main reason parents are not given the choice is not solely due to cost. There is a fear that SOME parents would not go for all three jabs (for many different reasons) and that the herd immunity would be at risk.
Such has happened with the HIBS vaccine. Anyone with school children will know that they have had to have a booster - previously unecessary - as there were not enough vaccinations given, and more outbreaks occured.
The doctor who started all this, who has, i think, finally been struck off, should be locked up.
I am also saddened that the debate is still going on.
I do, however ,think that, it is better for parents to go for the seperate jabs than none at all. I think the main reason parents are not given the choice is not solely due to cost. There is a fear that SOME parents would not go for all three jabs (for many different reasons) and that the herd immunity would be at risk.
Such has happened with the HIBS vaccine. Anyone with school children will know that they have had to have a booster - previously unecessary - as there were not enough vaccinations given, and more outbreaks occured.
Some very intresting replies, but my daughters problems started straight after the MMR, (no link to it in those days), but we have always believed it was the cause, and not a coincidence.
Although we cannot prove one way or the other, I believe that some children will be suscepttible to it, and has been mentioned, overloaded.
Although we cannot prove one way or the other, I believe that some children will be suscepttible to it, and has been mentioned, overloaded.
Lonnie, I think there are many others in your position. One day I believe the truth will out. A good and caring parent's instincts are often correct. There are too many parents in your situation. I do not believe it is coincidental.
Not connected to MMR, but similarly my mother's health deteriorated alarmingly after a flu jab. She was a healthy lady in her 60's who developed various unexplained symptoms after the jab and never recovered her full health. The doctors denied any connection, but one of the practice nurses took her aside and told her that there had been many similar cases and she believed that the flu jab was responsible!
Not connected to MMR, but similarly my mother's health deteriorated alarmingly after a flu jab. She was a healthy lady in her 60's who developed various unexplained symptoms after the jab and never recovered her full health. The doctors denied any connection, but one of the practice nurses took her aside and told her that there had been many similar cases and she believed that the flu jab was responsible!
Lotty my love, I would NEVER try to change you opinion.
What IS your evidence (scientific. not just hearsay) to PROVE the association and before you say what evidence is the there to PROVE there ISN'T an association....remember it is more difficult to prove a negative.
But.....you should be heard and who knows may prove to be correct in the future.
What IS your evidence (scientific. not just hearsay) to PROVE the association and before you say what evidence is the there to PROVE there ISN'T an association....remember it is more difficult to prove a negative.
But.....you should be heard and who knows may prove to be correct in the future.
That was my point in the first place, Lottie. No, they haven't proven there isn't a link. Chakka says the risk �is zero as far as human testing can determine.� �As far as human testing can determine� certainly doesn�t constitute proof, and whilst that may be acceptable to some, for me, in this instance, it just isn�t good enough.
Why,naomi, do you say 'in this instance'?
What is so different?
No medicine, drug or vaccination has been proved to be safe beyond what human testing can determine, so do you distrust them all? Do you never take medicines or other medical treatments?
Does 'in this instance' mean that you are still in thrall to the idea that MMR causes autism? And that this is therefore a special case?
I'll have to sort out all these posts, folks, and give a comprehensive reply tomorrow. Cheers for now.
What is so different?
No medicine, drug or vaccination has been proved to be safe beyond what human testing can determine, so do you distrust them all? Do you never take medicines or other medical treatments?
Does 'in this instance' mean that you are still in thrall to the idea that MMR causes autism? And that this is therefore a special case?
I'll have to sort out all these posts, folks, and give a comprehensive reply tomorrow. Cheers for now.
Just a thought but which does the worst damage is any.
Having the MMR jab or actually having chicken pox, measles.
I remember having all the complaints that the MMR covers and so did alot of people of my age and we are all still here and thriving so why the sudden urge to vacinate?
I admit I don't know much about this area so whats it all about?
Having the MMR jab or actually having chicken pox, measles.
I remember having all the complaints that the MMR covers and so did alot of people of my age and we are all still here and thriving so why the sudden urge to vacinate?
I admit I don't know much about this area so whats it all about?
As far as I am concerned, the children that have been damaged by the jab (and I believe they have) far outweighs anything else. If I take a tablet and react badly then that is enough for me, without having to have scientific proof. We are all different - no chemicals or drugs are entirely without risk even if infinitesimal. Each and every one of us will react differently to different invasive procedures and jabs are invasive.
Weighing up the pros and cons of MMR I would choose the three separate jabs rather than risk overload. And I am a responsible parent who would go back for the other two - I shouldn't suffer because some parents might forget, as was mentioned earlier.
My son had the MMR at 14 because I considered at that age he was developed enough with a strong immune system.
Weighing up the pros and cons of MMR I would choose the three separate jabs rather than risk overload. And I am a responsible parent who would go back for the other two - I shouldn't suffer because some parents might forget, as was mentioned earlier.
My son had the MMR at 14 because I considered at that age he was developed enough with a strong immune system.
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