was i born in england?

[crisgal]

i am filling out my son's application to start college in september. Some of the form is already filled in with details previously obtained.
On the personal details, it states that me, him and his dad were all born in 'england' and are 'english.
i always put great britain and that i am british - have the rules changed? The college have changed the details, as i know i wouldn't have put such a thing.

[Count-A-Strong]

Yes but was that part of Britain England?

[crisgal]

yes - but i've never seen that on a form before. have you?

[jno]

sounds odd. Can you change it on the form? They might have reasons for wanting to know how many Scots (etc) they have on their list, but they have no right to assume you're English if you haven't told them so.

[crisgal]

well i was going to change it but don't want them to think i'm awkward, before he even starts college!

[THECORBYLOON]

You said some of the details were previously obtained, how was that done?

[THECORBYLOON]

Which country is the college in?

[Count-A-Strong]

I think there has been a lot of objection from people ( like myself) who would far rather call themselves English rather than British but they should at least have given you the option. I wouldn't worry about it.

[jno]

may I take this opportunity to welcome you back under your original name, TCL?

[ummmm]

In the grand scheme of things...!!!!

[THECORBYLOON]

Thank-you jno but I am not sure if the AB Ed is aware of the fact or no, we shall see....

[THECORBYLOON]

The college appears to have assumed the country of birth was England so there will be many who would object to that.

[crisgal]

the college is in the uk - sorry! I mean england.
I just wondered if tghings had changed and noone had told me! I'm changing it to british i think.

[Buenchico]

Scotland has a completely different education system to that in England and Wales, with entirely different arrangements for student funding.

It's therefore important for colleges to differentiate between English (or Welsh) students and Scottish ones. Thus 'British' is not acceptable as a response in regard to nationality, since it doesn't specify which side of the border you're from.

Chris

[crisgal]

hi chris, that does make sense, but would it make a difference as to where me and his dad were born?

[Buenchico]

I can only assume that it's either
(a) to double-check that students aren't seeking funding that they're not entitled to ; or
(b) simply for statistical purposes, so that can see how many students come from different backgrounds.

[crisgal]

so my initial thought was right then? It's not usual to put 'english'?

[Buenchico]

If you're asked for your nationality, the correct answer (according to 'officialdom') is 'British' (or 'British citizen' which, of course, is not the same as 'British subject'!). Even more pedantically, you could write 'citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'.

However the UK is (as defined by the UN) a 'nation'. While that term is often used as if it's synonymous with 'country', it makes sense (here in the UK) to reserve the term 'country' for the constitute parts of the UK. (Annoyingly, my brain told me to type 'constituent nations', instead of 'constituent parts' there, but that wouldn't make any sense at all!).

So if you're asked which country you were born in, the correct answer might well be 'England', rather than 'the UK'. However I'm prepared to bet that you could write 'England' on some forms, only to see it crossed out and replaced with 'UK'!

However 'Great Britain' (which, of course doesn't include Northern Ireland) is unlikely to be the required answer. The person asking the question will either require a 'precise' answer (i.e. 'England') or a 'broad' one (i.e. 'UK'). With exception of a few sporting events, 'Great Britain' isn't really recognised as either a 'nation' or as a single 'country' (since it comprises three of them), yet 'British' is recognised as a nationality!!!

Basically it comes down to the fact that our constitution (which doesn't even exist in a written form) has been cobbled together over many centuries, resulting in many anachronisms.

Chris

PS: I've had trouble trying to explain this, in any comprehensible form, to someone whom I assume hails from the same country/nation/state as me. I once tried explaining it to an American, with no success whatsoever ;-)

[crisgal]

i love you buenchico!

[THECORBYLOON]

Why should the college assume they were born in England but? If they were British, is it not residence in England that is important rather than being born in England?

[saxy_jag]

Are you sure this isn't information that your son has given to the college? Even so, I would think 'British' much more usual in this circumstance because it's most likely to do with citizenship status and rights to fees concessions.

When I used to work with LD teenagers and they had to fill in forms like this, we would always tell them that their nationality and /or ethnic background was whatever they chose to describe themselves as. That was their right.

Because I always thought I was part-Scottish, I always called myself British. I've now discovered that I most likely don't have any Scottish ancestry and unless I found out that one Elizabeth Bara McKirahan, who married into my family in the C15th, was Scottish, then I will probably start to describe myself as English.