Listener 4097: Half-Thyme by Dipper

[midazolam]

In a way typical of what we expect from Dipper, although harder than recent efforts. Initially a quick start developed into a much slower finish. I enjoyed tracking down the herbs but I thought the placing of the misprints was slightly unfair. At least it left something else to tackle near the end (unlike previous times).

[trux]

and a beginner at posting answers, clearly !!! (had to register and then re-typed before I realised original msg had been posted) ... sorry !

[contendo]

trux - The herb is only in Bradford in an edulcorant form.

[aldana]

I really enjoyed this crossword, and unusually I knew what I was trying to do all the way through, as on reading through the clues I saw what was superfluous in 33 down and guessed where it came from; it was just a matter of doing it, which took some time. Like some others, I got the phrase before I got 18ac. Some nice touches in this crossword, Dipper!

[AndrewG-S]

trux, S-matrix hints were helpful on 23a (once I read them properly), also chambers word wizard or quinalplus help to identify possible words. Failing this drop me an e-mail on [email protected]

[Staurologist]

I started solving Ximenes and the Listener puzzles in the mid 1960s, and it is not my impression that the puzzles have become easier. The average number of entries when the Listener puzzles were published in the Listener was very variable, but occasionally rose to about 500. Since they started to be published in the Times the average number of entries per week has been pretty steady at about 500. [I exclude the very early years of the Listener, when the puzzles were reputedly very recherche.] The average error rate has also been steady, at around 18%. I shall try to compile some more detailed figures some time. [Can one post graphs here?]

Nor do I think that we are all naturally better solvers. The comments here are contributed by a selected group of avid solvers, many of whom are, I suspect, pretty expert. In other words, we are not being exposed to the full gamut of solver experience. Solving aids have, however, improved and they must have made a difference.

What I think is true is that setters' ability to produce ingenious and entertaining puzzles has not changed--it is as great as ever. However, I would temper that observation by adding that there are a few setters who seem to try too hard to produce diffcult puzzles. They would do well to attend to the advice to setters so pertinently quoted by AndrewG-S.

[trux]

thanks A G-S et al ! got there in the end - had the right herb - but was erring to the wrong end of the clue for the definition - even though I had my doubts but my wordfinder couldn't find it .... so ALL DONE, tho' in these Q&A, it seems that you are a real amateur if you're not smug by Friday midnight !!!!
must go to Post Office to buy a stamp ... but at 500/1 odds, I might as well double up with a lottery ticket !

[Ruthrobin]

No trux, not smug, just delighted to get there before the end of the weekend -sometimes. Like you, I started as one who struggled till Tuesday - that was almost two years ago, but experience does really help. You learn the tricks, meanings of short letters, where to look for things to highlight, and how to interpret the preambles. I am full of admiration for any newcomer who finally gets a complete grid. This discussion board is a real help, especially now that no blatantly direct answers are given so that we don't have a guilty conscience when following the threads. Staurologist's input has been fascinating and I believe what he says. The difficulty seems to remain roughly the same (with vast variations from week to week) but I believe individual solvers become more competent - as new ones arrive. The best aspect, I think, of Answerbank is that it gives struggling newcomers the encouragement to continue. (Staurologist, I don't think one can publish graphs here but it is certainly possible to give a link to a page.)

[AndrewG-S]

As a relatively recent newcomer (started in March) I have gone from struggling until Friday to complete to feeling a bit disappointed if I am not done by the end of the weekend. So Ruthrobin is right that a bit of perseverence and practice can yield results. Also I am grateful to the AB site for some pointers along the way but nothing too blatant! I would also recommend to any new solver reading the notes to setters on the Listener site as it gives some useful insights on how grids and clueing are to be undertaken, which certainly helps in solving.

[silversolver]

I agree with Ruthrobin and AndrewG-S. I started attempting the Listener towards the end of last year and initially found I could complete about half of them spending most of the week toiling away, then slowly getting to the point where I was managing to complete them every week and now generally getting them done in a few hours. Getting to know some of the tricks of the trade and, especially, finding the Chambers Word Wizard and Quinapalus sites and investing in a copy of Bradfords have been the main reasons for my improved success rate and speed.

[cluelessJoe]

I'd venture that the last few posts bear out comments made here (and in several past threads) on the value of the rich variety of solving aids now available. Struggling till Tuesday / Friday / spending most of the week - I wish! When I started attempting the puzzles about 7 years ago, and using only hardcopy Chambers, it was a triumph to complete within the week - in fact it was a triumph to complete at all before the deadline date ... several times I recall racing out to catch the last post on the second Wednesday after a final struggle. Anyone starting out now, armed with just a few of the available aids, is hugely advantaged. I have nothing but admiration for the stalwarts of those much earlier days who achieved their 100% records without recourse to any of the gadgets we all seem to accept as essential nowadays - and there are those who still outsolve us armed with just the big red book. Hats off to you!

[Clamzy]

And hats off too to those who have gained enough experience in a matter of months to complete an average Listener in a matter of hours. Like cJ I have found modern aids have cut my time in half but still struggle to complete by Sunday after 16years of toil in this establishment.

[BlackHugh]

And some of us weren't able to complete it until Wednesday evening and were happy rather than embarrassed at not having done it quicker - although in my case I could not start it until Sunday evening due to holiday travel nightmare!

On the current topic: I certainly struggled to complete Listeners, using only the printed "Red Book", by the deadline - and generally only managed to send one in every other week if that. My current use of the online version certainly gives me far more satisfaction and enjoyment with the themes than I used to get and I generally now submit every week. I suspect this is the case with many others.

[Zabadak]

This is the first year I have regularly submitted solutions, but for several years, once I discovered the Crossword Club, Friday night has almost always been Listener night, and I look forward to my weekly fix so much that when the site gets it wrong, it leaves a serious hole.
Aids - I use the CD ROM Chambers - certainly make things quicker, and I take a particular pleasure in completing on Friday night - numericals take me much longer, and my measure of a tough one is when I haven't completed by Sunday.
However, I do think this year, with two or three exceptions mentioned in earlier posts, we have got off relatively lightly. We haven't had a playfair for ages (cue tomorrow night, I expect!) nor have we been up against bell-ringing changes since (I think) 4000, the monster celebratory one - just two of the devices that usually stymie me and probably discourage newcomers. But it continues to be a delightful addiction, and long may it continue. What a treasure was so nearly lost before the Times sorted out the copyright issues and gave it house room!

[Philoctetes]

Like most, I found the CD-ROM to be a solving turbo-boost. I usually finish by Monday. But I prefer to dip into the beast in short bursts rather than sit down until I have cracked it. The exception to this is the numericals, where, because i am following logical steps, I find it too easy to forget if I take a break.
I can well remember the first Listener I completed. It was pre-1972 (ie still at school) and was a circular one where there was a quotation from Chaucer round the outside. From that I take a) a peculiar love of circular puzzles (not had one of those for some time) an b) the word "anent" which was a part of the quote. Second complete was about 5 years later, then only came back to them when the Times took them up.

[Ruthrobin]

Yes, Philoctetes - I love the circular ones too - Frank's Three Rings was the first I solved.

[Ruthrobin]

A final word from me on this topic. A message just posted on the Crossword Centre message board by Don Manley announces (sadly) that the Chambers Crossword Manual is being put out of print. (Of course, Chambers has been taken over by Harrap). This is yet another very valuable help to solvers, taking you right through from easy cryptics to the advanced ones. It would be a good idea to pick a copy up on Amazon or anywhere you can get hold of one if you are keen to improve your solving aids. It is aimed at compilers too.

[AndrewG-S]

Thanks Ruthrobin, I just ordered a copy which should make good holiday reading!

[twoshortplan]

Sorry to come so late. Stil struggling with 18ac but no problems with 14ac. The shortened form is in Chambers appendices which is legit so can't see what the complaints are about.