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No, but I think normal service has definitely been resumed following the millennium millstone, sorry milestone. I should of course have posted 10 by 8 by ? - that will teach me to read the preamble first.
Hi bobbycollins .. some rather devious clueing but after about half a dozen cold-solved, I eventually got up some steam and the rest of the answers fitted together quite quickly. Now with full grid, it's down to cracking the second half of the challenge which may prove to be significantly more demanding.
As for those gentle hints - and overlooking the recent lapse on 4002 - I have to say I was very impressed at the degree of restraint shown by all on the majestic 4000. I'd half expected to see piles of requests from bogged-down solvers, and a list of 200 plus direct answers from Quizmonster but in general I think the threads on this particular board for the 'big one' would have met with the approval of most of the Listener's stats people.
Now back to those scissors ....
As for those gentle hints - and overlooking the recent lapse on 4002 - I have to say I was very impressed at the degree of restraint shown by all on the majestic 4000. I'd half expected to see piles of requests from bogged-down solvers, and a list of 200 plus direct answers from Quizmonster but in general I think the threads on this particular board for the 'big one' would have met with the approval of most of the Listener's stats people.
Now back to those scissors ....
cluelessjoe's comment gave me hope and I slogged on with the cold solving. The fact that the majority of the across entries had only one possible home was a huge factor in my filling the grid. I give nothing away here - the fact is self-evident.
I've not yet got aound to the scissory bit and I hope that the Pound Shop specimens in my pencil case are up to the task!!
I've not yet got aound to the scissory bit and I hope that the Pound Shop specimens in my pencil case are up to the task!!
Judging by the lack of happy postings, it seems we are all finding this a challenging puzzle...
I'd like to initiate a discussion on the partitioning into two areas. Assuming, for a moment, that there is symmetry about the central vertical axis, there seem to be many solutions (...but all with non-contiguous areas) that satisfy the conditions of equal size, shape and the message revealed from the clues. So, it is possible that a further constraint is needed.
Guided by the title, I have now found a solution where both areas are made up five blocks of eight contiguous cells, thus making 10 blocks of 8 in total. However, even if this the right approach, the final step still escapes me.
I'd welcome any ideas!
I'd like to initiate a discussion on the partitioning into two areas. Assuming, for a moment, that there is symmetry about the central vertical axis, there seem to be many solutions (...but all with non-contiguous areas) that satisfy the conditions of equal size, shape and the message revealed from the clues. So, it is possible that a further constraint is needed.
Guided by the title, I have now found a solution where both areas are made up five blocks of eight contiguous cells, thus making 10 blocks of 8 in total. However, even if this the right approach, the final step still escapes me.
I'd welcome any ideas!
I may have misunderstood you, Ferrabosco, but I don't see how there can possibly be many solutions, and if there are, that strikes me as unfair. My reading of the preamble is that after partitioning the grid, solvers will have two identically shaped areas, each consisting of 40 contiguous cells. To meet the requirement specified in the hidden message the shapes will have to be quite complicated, one of them being an inversion of the other.
thanks c - very late start on this being away - some strange cluing - the meaning of flayed in 20 across still eludes me
ferrabosco - given that the grid is 10 cells by 8 eight cells and the grid must be split into two - i am not surprised that you have two lots of 5 x 8cells
I think there is only one way of dividing the grid into 2 so you can cut the grid out in one piece, rotate by 180 degrees and end up with the same shape
i havent figured out the final step yet, but i presumed that the title would be 10 letters and the setter 8 letters, one in each half?? nothing sticks out though. will keep plodding and give a hint if i manage to crack it in time
ferrabosco - given that the grid is 10 cells by 8 eight cells and the grid must be split into two - i am not surprised that you have two lots of 5 x 8cells
I think there is only one way of dividing the grid into 2 so you can cut the grid out in one piece, rotate by 180 degrees and end up with the same shape
i havent figured out the final step yet, but i presumed that the title would be 10 letters and the setter 8 letters, one in each half?? nothing sticks out though. will keep plodding and give a hint if i manage to crack it in time
Can I please politely request that no-one gives any hints at all to the final step of this puzzle? There are perhaps 2 or 3 puzzles a year like this one - ones that defeat numerous experienced solvers and whittle down the list of all-corrects. If the solution is revealed (or even hinted at) on here, we will end up yet again with ever greater numbers of all-corrects, and the statistics being further devalued, possibly to the point where the statistician gives up, to the detriment of a large section of the Listener community.
Midazolam, if you (or anyone else) work out the final step of this puzzle, please can I ask you to resist the temptation to help others on here? If a few people have to wait a couple of weeks to get the answer for once, surely that isn't so terrible? Because the alternative - that people get to the solution through help who wouldn't otherwise have done so - is really not good for those who take the Listener stats seriously.
Midazolam, if you (or anyone else) work out the final step of this puzzle, please can I ask you to resist the temptation to help others on here? If a few people have to wait a couple of weeks to get the answer for once, surely that isn't so terrible? Because the alternative - that people get to the solution through help who wouldn't otherwise have done so - is really not good for those who take the Listener stats seriously.
Angrysolver - whilst I broadly agree with you I think I can correct the emotive line about the Listener statistician taking irreparable umbrage.
John Green and I talked about this very point in a London pub a month or so ago. He is well aware that there are all sorts of opportunities for would-be correct solvers to enhance their stats by collaboration and use of forums like this. I dare say he's not thrilled about that but he is realistic. At the end of the day he reckons that what whittles down the statistics are not the inability of a solver to correctly identify the thematic twists of a puzzle but errors in unchecked cells of a grid and, if the stats are still running high towards the end of the year there are always a few carefully chosen puzzles waiting on the blocks that can serve the purpose of reducing the number of all-corrects.
From previous postings it has been suggested that Mr Green only continues his labour of love because he is innocently unaware of the chicanery that goes on behind the scenes. Not so. Unless you know differently.
By the way Midazolam, I think you'll find that 'flayed' has a misprint as part of the subsidiary message.
John Green and I talked about this very point in a London pub a month or so ago. He is well aware that there are all sorts of opportunities for would-be correct solvers to enhance their stats by collaboration and use of forums like this. I dare say he's not thrilled about that but he is realistic. At the end of the day he reckons that what whittles down the statistics are not the inability of a solver to correctly identify the thematic twists of a puzzle but errors in unchecked cells of a grid and, if the stats are still running high towards the end of the year there are always a few carefully chosen puzzles waiting on the blocks that can serve the purpose of reducing the number of all-corrects.
From previous postings it has been suggested that Mr Green only continues his labour of love because he is innocently unaware of the chicanery that goes on behind the scenes. Not so. Unless you know differently.
By the way Midazolam, I think you'll find that 'flayed' has a misprint as part of the subsidiary message.
I hope you are right about there being only one way to divide up the grid involving contiguous squares, as I have one (yes it does involve fairly complicated shapes) and would hate to have to look for another!
Having achieved that, like you I need to start digging for the setter and title - nice to have another testing challenge to grapple with.
Having achieved that, like you I need to start digging for the setter and title - nice to have another testing challenge to grapple with.
"Does anyone have any evidence that the "all-corrects" really do use AnswerBank when stuck? "
In response to ziller, yes - last year, one all-correct came on here to brag about his a/c status and to comment that "without this site, I'd have been at least 10 puzzles down".
Listener purists don't use this site if they get stuck - that doesn't mean that non-purists are not tempted to submit solutions that are not their own work as a result of hints on here.
"From previous postings it has been suggested that Mr Green only continues his labour of love because he is innocently unaware of the chicanery that goes on behind the scenes. Not so. Unless you know differently."
In response to Cruncher, I know that the Listener editors are fully aware of what goes on on here, do not approve, and have specifically requested that people who are aware of what goes on here (such as the posting of complete solutions on occasion in the past) do not inform the statistician of it. The statistician doesn't use a PC, and is not online himself, so it would seem that the editors would prefer he was kept in blissful ignorance.
And as for carefully-chosen puzzles to whittle down the all-corrects - this week's is clearly one of them. How much whittling will it do if people are helped to get to the final answer? Rather less than intended, I would have thought.
In response to ziller, yes - last year, one all-correct came on here to brag about his a/c status and to comment that "without this site, I'd have been at least 10 puzzles down".
Listener purists don't use this site if they get stuck - that doesn't mean that non-purists are not tempted to submit solutions that are not their own work as a result of hints on here.
"From previous postings it has been suggested that Mr Green only continues his labour of love because he is innocently unaware of the chicanery that goes on behind the scenes. Not so. Unless you know differently."
In response to Cruncher, I know that the Listener editors are fully aware of what goes on on here, do not approve, and have specifically requested that people who are aware of what goes on here (such as the posting of complete solutions on occasion in the past) do not inform the statistician of it. The statistician doesn't use a PC, and is not online himself, so it would seem that the editors would prefer he was kept in blissful ignorance.
And as for carefully-chosen puzzles to whittle down the all-corrects - this week's is clearly one of them. How much whittling will it do if people are helped to get to the final answer? Rather less than intended, I would have thought.
Honestly, AngrySolver, you talk about these statistics as though they are a matter of national importance. I think they have merit for each individual solver who can take pride in their own achievement and each of us will know, in a any given year, how much assistance we sought and received. Reading threads on the Crossword Centre a month or so ago I came across a posting by one solver (maybe you I don't know) who felt that using Chambers CD-Rom or an anagram solver was tantamount to cheating. I think this is bonkers. If you or I, at the end of the year have manged to submit 52 correct crosswords I can't see that affects our own personal achievement whether there a dozen other all-correct solvers or 50 others. Who cares. Of course it would guarantee us a place at the table of honour at the Annual Dinner; but then having spent two hours in the pub with a load of Listener solvers, who were a pretty introspective and self-absorbed bunch, I'm not entirely convinced that an evening holed up in a hotel with Listenerites en masse is necessarily preferable to a night at home watching the footie on the box with my kids.
As to Mr Green, we did have an unambiguous conversation about internet help sites. He may not have a PC himself but, somehow or other he has a pretty shrewd idea of what goes on. And to be honest the statistics are a labour of love for him precisely because he chooses not to use a PC. He could produce the statistics on a spreadsheet in no time at all if he wanted to but I suspect he enjoys the very laboriousness of it. Good for him.
As to Mr Green, we did have an unambiguous conversation about internet help sites. He may not have a PC himself but, somehow or other he has a pretty shrewd idea of what goes on. And to be honest the statistics are a labour of love for him precisely because he chooses not to use a PC. He could produce the statistics on a spreadsheet in no time at all if he wanted to but I suspect he enjoys the very laboriousness of it. Good for him.
I don't see the difference between asking for, and getting, help on a Listener Crossword here and asking my spouse, my neighbour, my work colleagues or any other person.
Except that the exchanges are viewable by the world and his dog!
If there is a rule saying that there must be no collaboration then why is it not published along with the puzzle?
I feel quite justified in discussing anything that is published in a newspaper.
Except that the exchanges are viewable by the world and his dog!
If there is a rule saying that there must be no collaboration then why is it not published along with the puzzle?
I feel quite justified in discussing anything that is published in a newspaper.
Away from the perennial debate..
Sorry Midazolam my previous post was in response to yours in case that was not clear. Soon after that, I saw that I had two number 13's in the same half, so had to re-do my division anyway!
Now back to looking at the letters ... I agree with you that we are likely to be seeking a 10 letter title and 8 letter setter but am not so sure that one will appear in one section, one the other. I'm more inclined to think that as we may need 18 letters in total, the 18 letters from each section somehow combine/interact/encode to give the 18 we are seeking.
Alternatively, is there relevance in the phrasing "solvers should turn to the task ..."? Having identified and cut out two shapes, is there some way they can be rotated and superimposed in a different orientation such that some of the numbered letters combine to give the 2 words?
That's just a couple of thoughts ... I'm considering the latter mainly because of specific reference to cutting up the grid
Sorry Midazolam my previous post was in response to yours in case that was not clear. Soon after that, I saw that I had two number 13's in the same half, so had to re-do my division anyway!
Now back to looking at the letters ... I agree with you that we are likely to be seeking a 10 letter title and 8 letter setter but am not so sure that one will appear in one section, one the other. I'm more inclined to think that as we may need 18 letters in total, the 18 letters from each section somehow combine/interact/encode to give the 18 we are seeking.
Alternatively, is there relevance in the phrasing "solvers should turn to the task ..."? Having identified and cut out two shapes, is there some way they can be rotated and superimposed in a different orientation such that some of the numbered letters combine to give the 2 words?
That's just a couple of thoughts ... I'm considering the latter mainly because of specific reference to cutting up the grid
cluelessjoe - re: 20 across - i was being thick - the second subsidiary word i had was one letter shorter in its middle. the different letter i used made a different word that actually made a sensible sentence to tell me what to do!! i realise my ways now, but made no difference in outcome
re: the grid - i think the play on words "turn to the task" might simply mean that by cutting the grid out and "turning" it around will give the same shape. but it could have a second meaning as you say
the more i look at it the more i feel the preamble is being a tad unfair. for example one could simple use the entry that coincides with one of the 8s and is actually a name. why cant a setter's pseudonym be a persons name? at one of the 10s there is a word (albeit Latin) that could be the title (or by taking off the last letter is actually a word). of course the listener usually has better penny dropping moments than this..and i know it is not right..but it is simply one way of getting a title and setter.
i will keep looking
re: the grid - i think the play on words "turn to the task" might simply mean that by cutting the grid out and "turning" it around will give the same shape. but it could have a second meaning as you say
the more i look at it the more i feel the preamble is being a tad unfair. for example one could simple use the entry that coincides with one of the 8s and is actually a name. why cant a setter's pseudonym be a persons name? at one of the 10s there is a word (albeit Latin) that could be the title (or by taking off the last letter is actually a word). of course the listener usually has better penny dropping moments than this..and i know it is not right..but it is simply one way of getting a title and setter.
i will keep looking
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