Listener 4241 Skippers By Ifor

[AndrewG-S]

I cannot find a thread for the puzzle so expect I will be redirected. I think I have this all completed although not 100% on the final step, so this needs a bit more thought. Spent ages on a huge thematic red herring. An enjoyable challenge, thanks ifor.

[dr b]

An obscure theme to say the least, or is every British kid told this story in their crib? All done except for the thematic number; although I think I know what it has to be, I can't get the message from the clues to come out - the first bit makes sense but when I try to "repeat" the letter heights, I get gibberish. I'll try again tomorrow.

[Ruthrobin]

Finally got there after quite a struggle to read the message. Very enjoyable, thank you Ifor!

[jim360]

Too tired to try and decrpty the message, with uncertainty about quite what's going on at the end of my 11-letter code. Will have another look tomorrow.

Enjoyed quite a few clues, 2d in particular is brilliant.

[AndrewG-S]

Yes dr b this is pretty well known in Blighty but I understand why you might find it obscure. Final step all resolved now.

[AHearer]

Very nice puzzle from Ifor. I packed up last night when my message descended into gibberish about two thirds of the way through, but it quickly fell into place this morning when I saw that I was including one clue that I shouldn't. One bit of the wordplay for the initial grid still eludes me, but I'm happy with the final result.

[jim360]

Decoding the message clearly wasn't that important to understand the theme, which still eludes me. I mean, there are one or two parts of it that seem obvious, but then the main thing associated with that would I'd have thought be pretty well-known. So I must be missing something quite big.

[upsetter]

jim360 - do you want to compare notes (charles.salter at phillips.gi)

[IainGrace]

Comments noted. So far we have just done the easy bit! Thought 15ac was a novel clue.

[aldanna]

I have a full grid apart from one (well, maybe three) squares and a list of numbers. I have no idea in what order to put them, nor how to modify the grid. Unless I have gone after the red herring I am with dr b on total ignorance of the theme (nor much enlightened by Google), and I'm as English as they come. All in all, not looking too promising.

[Scorpius]

Grid filled apart from 43, which mystifies me. The wordplay gives me an answer that I cannot relate to a possible definition. I think I know what the theme is but that involves a leap of intuition rather than any hints from the puzzle. So far I have got no coherent message even though I'm pretty sure what "thematic order" means. And as for modifying a block of cells to show a first attempt, I cannot see any logical way of arriving there. I'm not even sure what "rebuilding one block of cells" means. If I'm right about the theme, the digits won't be correctly sequenced.
Ah well, I'll have another go at getting the message tomorrow.

[jim360]

Since I posted earlier it's all been sorted upsetter. Email sent if you still want to compare notes though.

[TheBear69]

Re 15a: isn't it off by 1?

[tilbee]

TheBear69 - I was just about to query the same.

Have found the grid fill pretty straightforward, though the wordplay at 43a took a little time to justify. Now onwards to the more difficult part.

[jockie]

Yes, TheBear 69, I agree. I have the instruction (of which the fourth word seems to be superfluous) but no idea how to interpret it. All the obvious ways of complying lead to not-words. I also have a vague idea (based on the look of the thing) what's going on, but that doesn't help either. More gazing needed.

[Scorpius]

Message now successfully retrieved, confirming my suspicion of the theme. Nicely engineered means of providing the message. Now for the rebuilding and that puzzling 43 across.

[tenflags]

Favourite clue 16D

[tilbee]

Finally all resolved (possibly). Staring at the grid does not help a lot, and think the end game is tough in that it certainly involves a degree of lateral thinking. Even after rebuilding the block of cells and performing the nominal replacement, the final step requires a specific interpretation of the instruction to create the thematic number, but I do not as yet see any other option - as perhaps AndrewG-S was alluding to in his initial post.

There is some thematic material here, but I only recognised this after reaching the solution and then Googling, which I am not sure is the right way around ?

As for red herrings I went through many of these. Amazing what you can see in a grid if you look hard enough.

[contendo]

My problem is that I have 12 letters dropped from the wordplay, so I'm going to have to do some careful reassessments. Also I can't quite sort out the SE corner and 6dn doesn't quite make sense, and I agree with TheBear about 15ac.

[emcee]

All done, but what a struggle after a relatively straightforward gridfill. I went down many blind alleys and, quite frankly, and am annoyed with myself for not getting the theme much quicker - this being one of my major interests!

I thought the theme was cleverly represented in the grid and the thematic number is quite clear once the coded message is applied.

A tough endgame, Ifor, but many thanks.

[tilbee]

And the moral is, when you think you have a Listener completed but you have a degree of uncertainty in your solution, then you are almost always wrong ! I now have a much more convincing way of producing the thematic number.