Listener No 4230 Elm By Quinapalus

[trux]

Whilst one might argue about some of the clueing, and several ambiguities in extra letter(s), there is no doubt whatsoever that the endgame is most elegant. A real tough test, just about worth the struggle (and struggle it was) but very satisfying when all done. Many thanks to Quinapalus

[Texasetes]

Using only the BRB and LRB I found this one hard going, and I finally completed it earlier this afternoon. Either dotage has arrived early or other contributors here are in a higher league than I'd imagined. There's no way I could have finished before Friday midnight, so hats off to those who did.

I found some of the clues almost intractable (and a handful a bit iffy), especially those involving skipped letters. Even reverse engineering wasn't straightforward. And once I had the instruction I wasn't sure exactly how to interpret its shortest word, which confused me for some time. A headache ensued.

On balance it was worth it, mainly for the puzzle's overall concept and the PDM. The grid construction is certainly very impressive, though exactly how tricky it would be to create by working backwards from a final grid to an intermediate grid such as this is difficult to gauge without attempting something similar (which won't happen).

This is surely the most challenging puzzle of the year so far, and will probably be in the running for the overall title. February's not over yet, though; by the time Christmas arrives Elm will be a fading memory and comparing it fairly with what's yet to come will be difficult.

Thank you, Quinapalus.

[jim360]

That is... wow. Almost literally speechless.

[fallster]

This was really tough, but great. I liked how I needed a combination of cold solving, guessing/fitting some answers in the grid, and using the alphabetic properties in order to crack all of the quite hard clues. And what a great revelation at the end. Still haven't figured out the title.

[tilbee]

fallster - title makes use of a fairly standard device

[tilbee]

...related to the given description of what the final grid illustrates.

[teuchter2]

I am not in the league of those who have completed this. only about half the clues solved and nothing in grid as I can't get any of the longer answers to give me a definite start. I will keep going.

[Arcticpenguin]

Teuchter 2 - keep at it. It's well worth the effort. I spent all of Saturday on this and only solved half the clues. Finished with a flood this morning. "..Clement (50)" came with a large groan. And at least the end play is straightforward enough. I don't know what JG makes of these "odd" submissions !! Very clever I must admit. Well done Q.

[jim360]

It's interesting as well how often certain clue devices are used over and over. One aspect of a clue that appeared in today's EV is also an answer with the same definition in this grid, while the wordplay "Promptly once" was also used in last weekend's EV. It certainly makes solving these become easier with experience.

But this one was massive and I'm glad of the small but significant help others provided. The end game is striking and I was stunned when it started fitting together so seamlessly. And so perfect as well in construction. I wonder how long it will have taken to find a grid that worked, let alone clues that could allow the instructions to have been submitted. Wonderful crossword.

[Staurologist]

Bravo, Quinapalus! It is often the case that what appears to be a stunning composition is not as hard to construct as it seems, since the composer works in the opposite direction to the solver. However, in this case I find the construction very impressive, particularly since the skipped letters were pre-specified by the message (although arranging those clues in alphabetical order will have helped considerably). I agree with Texasetes that one cannot judge how difficult it would be without trying it oneself--but I wouldn't like to try.

I agree with others that some of the cues were a little iffy. For example, in "Kick ..." the correct word primarily refers to the thing contained, not the container that the answer is involved in making. And in "Mainz ..." the answer is unlikely to be heard where the correct version suggests. The latter involves a common error. For example, if the dictionary says that a word is Scottish, it may nevertheless not be correct to suggest that it will be heard in, say, Inverness, since many Scottish words are local to specific areas of the country.

The construction proves the specific case of ELM but not, I think, the general case.

[perseverer]

I know it's still early in the year but this has to be in line for puzzle of the year, even with a couple of iffy clues. For a long time I worried that there were equally valid alternatives for an unchecked letter, but the end-game resolved it. Thanks to Quinapalus for the puzzle, and for his Word Matcher, which I had to resort to for a number of answers!

[cluelessJoe]

I stopped submitting Listeners because (partly due to activities in / fronted by these threads) the stats have become just too tarnished for my liking. The beauty of being such a non-combatant is that I can now put aside a puzzle which is weak / tedious and come back to it days or weeks later - maybe even not at all. Suffice it to say, I did not put this one aside and stuck with it to the delightful end which took me until Saturday evening to achieve. Sincere public thanks to Quinapalus for this triumph.

[fallster]

tilbee - thanks, I understand the title now.

[jim360]

It's possible that constructing this was easier than I imagine it to be, but with so much of the grid constructing seemingly constrained I don't think it's too far wrong to say that quinapalus went through a lot of failed attempts before getting to the final grid.

By contrast one commentator referred to last week's EV as "beautifully constructed" which, while a nice thought, is probably overstating things a little. After all, one of the gimmicks (seven clues = grid entry + one letter, anagrammed) was as I recall not difficult to sort out -- simply pick seven words in the final grid that could take the required letters. Took me no more than half an hour to sort that one out. The rest of the grid was trickier and went through several revisions, but anyway the point is that I think that was a lot easier to compose than this one was!

[jabone]

I'm glad that I persevered with this, as I am often (and infuriatingly)defeated by the endgame, but this fell in place quite easily and I do understand the title. Feeling slightly smug and very happy.
Thank you Quinapalus, very elegant.

[JackDeCrow]

Yes, certainly a challenge that one - lots of cold solving of clues that turned out to be tricky in their own right. Wasn't too keen on the "table near the loos" - but then I guess one never is - but for most of the other the groans were more of admiration in the end! Thanks, Quinapalus.

[IainGrace]

Hit the buffers a bit. Got virtually all the instruction but have cold solved virtually none of the last 20 clues in Grid A.

[s_pugh]

Agree with Jabone 100% Wish I had a quid for the number of times I've solved all the clues and filled the grid but then failed to comprehend the final 'manipulation' required. Same again here, grid B sketched and filled very quickly, grid A trickier but a couple of interlocking words enabled a tentative grid fill which miraculously worked through. And then nothing, even following the instructions and getting the title. So infuriating! About to file the pieces in the recycling bag when it all clicked, an excellent workout and even if some say it would be easier to construct Quinapalus has my admiration and thanks.

[Anapice]

If this Quinapalus is indeed the provider of the wonderful word search facility on his website, it may explain why I found it less helpful than usual this week.
Could it be that he made most of the longer answers of two or three words deliberately to frustrate the site users. I have yet to find a way of indicating that I require an answer with more than one word.

[Ruthrobin]

Yes, indeed it is that Quinapalus and indeed it was the multiple word answers and the long ones that caused me the most trouble but it was a spectacular construction wasn't it!

[perseverer]

Anapice - it is the same Quinapalus - if you want, the personal details link at the bottom of the Quinapalus home page will give you plenty of information about him. I don't think you can deliberately search for 2 word answers, you just treat them as a single word. Also it sometimes pays to change to the UNION dictionary, but you have to remember the dictionaries are not based on the BRB. In this puzzle, I think I can find all but one of the 2 or 3 word answers.
PS I am not paid to advertise, just a devotee of the site!