Listener 4161 To Have and Have Not by Lavatch

[Eril]

Anyone else have a problem with too many extras of a certain letter?

Very enjoyable puzzle, though haven't entirely understood all of the thematic treatments. Thanks Lavatch (and if solvers enjoyed that one then Lavatch did a very difficult Spectator recently)

[psifidotos]

Hi I'm new to the forum. Gather must not give too much away here. Reading through this and previous Listener threads it seems that the ones I find really tough others find straightforward and vice versa. I found this one enjoyable with some great clues (thanks Lavatch) but quite easy going and had no doubts which of the seven letter words goes where until I read some of the comments. Am I missing something? Starting to have qualms now.

[Zabadak]

Welcome psifidotos, and please hang around as much as you. In my opinion, the ease of this one was that it led you along to the conclusion without requiring a lucky guess - the careful wording of the preamble and the neat construction of the grid all helped rather than attempted merely to obscure. Things like the entry of the left hand answers contributed to getting the theme. Sounds like you've got the thing.
Other "easy" ones have had very quick grid fills, but (to some, including me) inaccessible endgames. This one took me longer in filling the grid - figuring out what to do with the right hand clues meant not having reliable crossing letters, for example - so was "harder" but more satisfying.
Let's see if we agree about the next (rumoured) toughie.

[Zabadak]

Insert "want" "wish" "can stand" or anything appropriate at the end of the first sentence. Dam', this age related forgetfulness is getting

[sunny-dave]

My avatar is the Alzheimer's Society elephant ...

[Walterloo]

Finally managed to pick this up again and get it done after a busy two days. Thought this was great and any puzzle that forces me to read up on a subject I'm not familiar with is a good one. For me the clueing was some of the best I've seen in a Listener. No problems for me on which way round to place the two words.

I'm also looking forward to next week. Being a Magpie fan I'm expecting a corker. Bring it on.

[JackDeCrow]

Would have to agree with anyone who found that tricky - only just finished here. Made very heavy weather of two aspects of the endgame, purely because I didn't check how many letters were supposed to be in the answer of a single clue. Details details!

[fyellin]

logophile, contendo: I don't mind (too much) when bizarrely cryptic instructions are given. However in this case, no instructions are given about the order in which to enter the two 7-letter words. There are multiple contradictory hints, and the solver has to weigh the relative merits of the hints.

I would hate for someone to submit this puzzle and be completely right except for the order of the two words, and be counted as incorrect. A person shouldn't be dinged for following a reasonable hint, but not the one the setter intended.

[perseverer]

Have to add my support to the no doubt which word goes where side of the debate - based on which side the two clue types relate to, never mind the philosophical arguments which also lead to the same conclusion. Don't think you can read too much into the title.

[Staurologist]

What a capital puzzle! Good the way all the losses and refillings left proper words. And so very topical.
1. Was it submitted and accepted some time ago, appearing now only coincidentally?
2. Was it submitted and accepted some time ago, and brought forward because of topicality?
3. Or was it submitted only recently and slotted in quickly?
Anybody know?

[trux]

Have been travelling so did this on 'planes, in hotels, without BRB but access to Word Wizard - found it quite tough, as others seem to, but still very satisfying, and I see no problems with endgame (what fits where - indeed, I think pre-ramble is quite specific) ... some excellent clues, and many thanks, Lavatch, for keeping me entertained for good while

[sunny-dave]

If you have an iPod Touch, iPad or iPhone the Chambers BRB app is now only £4.99 and is invaluable when travelling or away from home. Search for 'Chambers Dictionary' in iTunes.

It's not perfect (some of the searching is a bit idiosyncratic - eg it hates accented letters) and it's pants for the general 'browsing in the right sort of area' which is so often enlightening. But it is certainly the best fiver I've spent for a long time.

Currently up-to-date for 11th edition - my guess is that the 12th won't be released (except possibly at a very premium price) until the market for the printed 12th BRB has got past its initial surge.

[Alan7777]

I agree that this one is harder than the last few weeks and in fact too hard for this Listener novice. I have solutions to a number of clues but not enough to confidently put anything in the grid nor give me any idea of the theme(s). And it looks like I'll have next week off.

Thanks sunny-dave for the info as we've just become proud ipad owners.

[tenflags]

Captain slow started late on this but found it more of a challenge than the last few weeks and I enjoyed the cluing.. have the grid filled and theme etc. just need to complete ..

having now read the above I am already thinking best grow a beard ready for next week in anticipation of many strokey beard moments.

[borealis]

Back from holiday; sharpened pencil; slow start. Hard work; pdm 1 for LHS; more hard work; pdm for one 7-letter word; wanted the other one to be something but fell into what I now see was Eril’s trap; more hard work; pdm for RHS; pdm for names, but far too long grid-staring before pdm for lost words. Chuckles at appearance of some words, especially since I had to look up more than one to check... Finally found last letter of the other 7-letter word. That’s at least 5 pdms over three evenings - nice going, Lavatch!

Having now looked through this thread, I didn’t have any doubt about the thematic positioning of the two 7-letter words. A good solid Listener with an exact preamble.

[Philoctetes]

Finally threw off the headaches and found this went ahead much more smoothly. As most have said, this is classic Listener with a series of logical PDMs, so i withdraw any grumpiness. Trying to relax in anticipation of tomorrow's offering

[Alan7777]

Despite my earlier post I decided to persevere and I now have a full grid, one of the 7-letter words, a good idea what the other one is (although I can't find where to put one of its letters in the clues) and the right side theme. But I cannot find the two words to lose and I'm not sure what names I will need to insert.

Am I close or am I still a long way from finishing?

[psifidotos]

Thanks Zabadak. Am with you on that. And just in case I gave the wrong impression, I didn't find this a doddle. Far from it. Some very tough clues, but immaculately constructed. And no obfuscation for obfuscation's sake. Classic Listener.

[BlackHugh]

Alan - I think you are close - finding the two words together with the rest of the thematic material should make the names fairly obvious

[Alan7777]

Finally found the words to lose and my suspicion re the names was confirmed. very relieved to have finished. Would have been very frustrating to fail at the final hurdle. Do I qualify for the Friday club?

[Alan7777]

Or should that be 'fall' at the final hurdle. Still getting used to the iPad keyboard.