Are we only allowed to be patriotic during 'The World Cup' ?

[anotheoldgit]

I paid a visit to my local supermarket today, only to see the car-park festooned with St George's flags, and on the road home, enormous similar ones were draped out of windows.

Nothing wrong with that one may say, but the trouble they wasn't the standard St George's flag, no these had been defaced (in my opinion) by the addition of Lions and Crowns, others by the word ENGLAND.

Are they purposely defaced in such a way, so that they won't offend?

It is strange that the Englishman has to wait before his beloved soccer team enters a 'World Cup' tournament before he flies his country's flag with pride.

It is also strange that he can say with pride "I am an English man, and my countries team is better than any other" yes he is allowed to say this without being branded a 'Racist', strange.

Yet when the tournament is over, the flags will disappear, certain councils will ban them being flown, and the word 'ENGLAND' will disappear to be replaced by 'British' or 'Brit', and then to get up and say "the English are better than any other" this is then construed to be racist.

So even if one hates soccer, take this short opportunity to fly your flag, stick your chest out, and tell everyone how great it is to be British, (ups can't get out the habit) ENGLISH.

[dh001]

Sorry i should have said that the two examples i mentioned were separate matters.

[dh001]

Yes absolutely right they got into trouble for it jake-the-peg.

[anotheoldgit]

I must admit I join others in congratulating you for such a fine post, a straight forward , no insults, no name calling informative post.

Now, how did you know there was a 'BUT' on the way. :o)

You say "As far as I am concerned, I am British / English by an accident of birth, and nothing more".

True, we are all here by birth, I wouldn't go as fas to say 'accident', perhaps some but not all.

But, looking at it another way, we could have also been born an animal, a insect, or a fish, take that you were born a dog.

Would this have conferred on you some god-given right to adopt a superior attitude over a cat? Which had in turn been born by a similar quirk of fate a cat?

Having then established his superiority over the cat, I think the dog would then claim proprietorial rights to that patch of land he claimed as his territory, by birth right.

A rather silly analogy, but what the hell. :o)

[anotheoldgit]

Greedyfly

/// We generally only shout about our britishness when it comes to football ///

A typical example, you said 'Britishness' why not 'English'?

In the true sense of the word, there isn't a 'British' football team.

[Ankou]

i don't like to fly the st george flag really.

i do however like to flash me union jack boxer shorts to the foreign ladies after a good binge in the boozer and a punch up on me hols in ibiza.

[anotheoldgit]

Almost forgot in the said supermarket carpark there was a car with what can only be descibed as a black St Georges Flag, (a black cross on a white background). flying from it's aerial.

I have looked this up, and it states it is the 'Historical Flag of the Archbishop of Cologne'.

Strange I didn't know our supermarket attracted people of such reverence.

[anotheoldgit]

ankou

Good, so long as you are not English, it doesn't matter.

[Ankou]

so only foreigners can wear union jack shorts ?

[andy-hughes]

Thank you sherminator, woofgang, and karl for your kind words, much appreciated.

And also you tou AOG, and of course, I have a 'but' coming ...

I'm afraid i find your analogy puzzling in the extreme.

In the first point, I fail to see how a dog would automatically assume a superior position to a cat - even allowing for the fact that as animals, neither appears to be capable of indulging in the concept of its place in a hierarchical structure.

In regard to this debate - the analogy fails to hold up - we are not cats, or dogs, we are human, and my point, which I know you have grasped, is that our place and circumstance is not of our making, any more than any other species, which makes an over-developed sense of self and place to be inappropriate.

[Zeuhl]

///Are we only allowed to be patriotic during 'The World Cup?///

No.
We are allowed to be patriotic at any time.

However, many English people (I think other British people; Welsh, Scots and Irish are different) choose to be less demonstrative or 'showy' in their affection for their country, hence the scarcity of flags most of the time.

I think this is a particularly endearing quality and probably correlates with our innate sense of value and the nation's based on our long history.

Showy displays of patriotism are best left to the more insecure, younger nations.
.

[society]

I agree Zeuhl, it's one's sense of values which make them patriotic or not.

[jake-the-peg]

Patriotism is about saying

"This is us, we are together - you're outside - you're not one of us"

That's definately for the insecure.

There is a difference though - I can understand those who've come to this country and become British being patriotic.

For them it is something they aspired to something they worked for.not an accident of birth

Perhaps that's why many Americans are so patriotic so many coming from famillies relatively recently arrived

[anotheoldgit]

andy-hughes

I am sure my dog thinks it's superior to the 'Ginger Tom' next door, and I think the cat agrees with him, he has never hung around to argued the point.

We may be human, but we are still predominately territorial, and have been since the beginning of time, it is in our genes, and no recently induced 'political correctness' can alter this fact.

[jake-the-peg]

So do you feel superior to other nations AOG?

How about the Americans - they have a bigger everything - do you feel inferior to them?

Of course if you were a proper European you could feel superior to the Yanks you know!

Come on whistle "ode to joy" you know you want to

[andy-hughes]

I don't agree AOG.

Civilisation means we do not find our women by simply wandering over the hill, finding a lone woman, clubbing her over the head, and hauling her back to our cave by her hair.

We have moved on since then - and so should our 'territorial' instincts.

We are not barbarians - well, hopefully not - and we should not pander to instincts left over from when we were.

[olddutch]

AOG

“We may be human, but we are still predominately territorial, and have been since the beginning of time, it is in our genes, and no recently induced 'political correctness' can alter this fact.” I agree - we are all innately territorial and this is best demonstrated by the fact that we put locks on our houses and fences round them - We control who comes in and out of our homes and are backed up by the Law. Then we also organise ourselves within bigger territories - Borough, Town, City, Nation State, Union of Nation States.

I was born in Holland but truly feel I am English - I have lived in England since I was a month old and have always held a British passport - I think of myself as an Englishman and Brit - but Not as an EU European or even a Dutchman (never mind the “Olddutch”) but I love Holland and the diversity of Europe. I am proud to be English and I want England to win the World Cup and Holland to be runners up (draw permitting) - and I’ve quietly got two small St George Cross flags for the World Cup Tournament.

AOG - Do you feel Im a true Englishman ? It would be interesting to know ?

[jno]

jake, I think there's a distinction to be made between patriotism and nationalism. You can be patriotic - proud of your country and the good it's done - without denigrating others. Nationalism though usually has a nasty edge that involves putting others down in order to praise yourselves. Cheering (say) England when they beat Australia at cricket is patriotic but it's hardly nationalistic. I think it's the latter you're opposing (and rightly). The former is okay by me.

There is a British football team; it's just that the brand of football is rugby league. Presumably this will be joined by rugby union when this becomes an Olympic sport.

[Rev Sermon]

While I don't dispute much of what AH says, aren't there such things as loyalty and being a team player. Whatever group of people you are part of whether it's a nationality, a university, a football team etc. shouldn't you support your own?

That doesn't have to mean animosity towards others just a sense of affiliation with your own group. Patriotism and xenophobia are two completely different things.

[anotheoldgit]

olddutch

I was just about to answer andy with more or less your analogies on territoriality.

Yes, you are English just as Cliff Richards is, who was born in India.