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Question for AB marxists. (Islam again)
27 Answers
To all the lovely marxist, woolly true huggers that frequent AB, I was just wondering if you are at all concerned about the rise of anti-muslim feeling?
To sit back and stress there is no fear that muslims are taking over, is your rightful opinion. But are you worried not about Britain becoming Sharia based, but the rise of a new breed of neo-muslim haters.
I was too young to recall the rise of The National Front, but my understanding is they didn't really last and were yesterdays news fairly quickly.
However, there is a fundamental difference. It is clear, from AB alone, that anti-muslim feeling IS NOT reserved for ultra right wing extreme groups (like the NF) It is apparent in all walks of life, even pushing over to the left side of things.
I was just wondering therefore if the marxists fear an almost civil war, not between muslims and normal people, but between muslim-haters and muslim acceptors (i.e you).
I do confess, I do at times hate my opinions. I was brought up to tolerate people, to treat people with respect and to love my fellow man. Further, whatever I am, I am still a highly educated individual and certainly NOT a monkey-boot wearing British Bulldog tattoed skinhead.
If you do fear a new rising of (in your opinion) hate filled individuals, is this why the BNP are also feared by you lefties. The end of the day Nick Griffin is a suit wearing, well spoken and educated individual. His henchmen are not the NF skinheads of old, they are a fair representation of white Britain including teachers, nurses and lawyers etc.
To sit back and stress there is no fear that muslims are taking over, is your rightful opinion. But are you worried not about Britain becoming Sharia based, but the rise of a new breed of neo-muslim haters.
I was too young to recall the rise of The National Front, but my understanding is they didn't really last and were yesterdays news fairly quickly.
However, there is a fundamental difference. It is clear, from AB alone, that anti-muslim feeling IS NOT reserved for ultra right wing extreme groups (like the NF) It is apparent in all walks of life, even pushing over to the left side of things.
I was just wondering therefore if the marxists fear an almost civil war, not between muslims and normal people, but between muslim-haters and muslim acceptors (i.e you).
I do confess, I do at times hate my opinions. I was brought up to tolerate people, to treat people with respect and to love my fellow man. Further, whatever I am, I am still a highly educated individual and certainly NOT a monkey-boot wearing British Bulldog tattoed skinhead.
If you do fear a new rising of (in your opinion) hate filled individuals, is this why the BNP are also feared by you lefties. The end of the day Nick Griffin is a suit wearing, well spoken and educated individual. His henchmen are not the NF skinheads of old, they are a fair representation of white Britain including teachers, nurses and lawyers etc.
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I feel that this country is being bent over and shoved, taken over by these people.
What annoys me the most is that NO ONE says anything. I once saw a 2-part TV series, about 4 years ago. It was about the bradford riots. There was a fantastic scene where all the locals where in this council hall and the pane were all asian, who were trying to bring peace. One of the panel asked the all whte crowd how they could bring peace to the area. It all went quiet and no one said a thing. This one person (cant remember who the actor was) stood up and said "get rid of you lot" or words to that effect. After he stood up and spoke his mind, the whole room followed.
I think this is a clear view of what is happening today. We all want to stand up and say something, but no one will because we will get in trouble. All it needs is one person, with enough balls to stand up in the street and speak their mind, and the rest will follow.
What annoys me the most is that NO ONE says anything. I once saw a 2-part TV series, about 4 years ago. It was about the bradford riots. There was a fantastic scene where all the locals where in this council hall and the pane were all asian, who were trying to bring peace. One of the panel asked the all whte crowd how they could bring peace to the area. It all went quiet and no one said a thing. This one person (cant remember who the actor was) stood up and said "get rid of you lot" or words to that effect. After he stood up and spoke his mind, the whole room followed.
I think this is a clear view of what is happening today. We all want to stand up and say something, but no one will because we will get in trouble. All it needs is one person, with enough balls to stand up in the street and speak their mind, and the rest will follow.
I guess that I'm classified as a typical woolly. I do despair at the lack of tolerance in general, rather than specifically intolerance towards Islam.
The thing is, the AB news section is not representative of how people live their lives in the real world. There might be people chanting abuse and postualting the final solution, but it's rather cowardly and sat behind a monitor. I have yet to see anyone shouting it in Tesco. Ranting and raving (on both sides) is not that common, but the general feeling of mistrust is weaving its way through Britain and is much more of a worry. This is exactly why we NEED more tolerance. I guess that all the right wingers could fight and fight, and perhaps one day we can all enjoy a thermo-nuclear holocaust. Perhaps it will be called a success when hundreds of thousands of people are dead on both sides but there is no 'threat' of Islam anymore.
The thing is, the AB news section is not representative of how people live their lives in the real world. There might be people chanting abuse and postualting the final solution, but it's rather cowardly and sat behind a monitor. I have yet to see anyone shouting it in Tesco. Ranting and raving (on both sides) is not that common, but the general feeling of mistrust is weaving its way through Britain and is much more of a worry. This is exactly why we NEED more tolerance. I guess that all the right wingers could fight and fight, and perhaps one day we can all enjoy a thermo-nuclear holocaust. Perhaps it will be called a success when hundreds of thousands of people are dead on both sides but there is no 'threat' of Islam anymore.
Supernick, your first paragraph kind of sums up what I am saying.
Many tolerant people, perhaps some lefties like yourself, are just intolerant of muslims, and nobody else.
Seemingly left of centre liberal vegetarians are beginning to turn against them.
We the woolies be like Animal Farm and strive for equality BUT with the exception of a bit of islamaphobia.
Like a vegetarian who eats fish, and Indie Rock-chick with a Take That CD, a health and safety executive on his mobile phone whist driving???
Will the marxists one day accept islamophbia or is intolerence of one thing just as bad as a nyriad of intolerances?
Many tolerant people, perhaps some lefties like yourself, are just intolerant of muslims, and nobody else.
Seemingly left of centre liberal vegetarians are beginning to turn against them.
We the woolies be like Animal Farm and strive for equality BUT with the exception of a bit of islamaphobia.
Like a vegetarian who eats fish, and Indie Rock-chick with a Take That CD, a health and safety executive on his mobile phone whist driving???
Will the marxists one day accept islamophbia or is intolerence of one thing just as bad as a nyriad of intolerances?
The problem we're faced with is that it's becoming acceptable (understandable?) to hate.
It's hard to speak up in defence of Islam in the face of Sudanese approbum, similarly it's hard to speak in defence of the B.N.P when by their very nature they are divisive. They say they'll stand up for the British, but who are the British? If you're answer is a white man then were for instance does that leave the Nepalese? Their Gurkha battalions have spilt their blood in defence of our realm for decades (centuries).
Somebody (us?) needs to take a step back from cycle of violence and retribution, an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.
Muslims themselves have to stand up be counted in opposition to fundamentalism, or else they risk losing their religion forever.
It's hard to speak up in defence of Islam in the face of Sudanese approbum, similarly it's hard to speak in defence of the B.N.P when by their very nature they are divisive. They say they'll stand up for the British, but who are the British? If you're answer is a white man then were for instance does that leave the Nepalese? Their Gurkha battalions have spilt their blood in defence of our realm for decades (centuries).
Somebody (us?) needs to take a step back from cycle of violence and retribution, an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.
Muslims themselves have to stand up be counted in opposition to fundamentalism, or else they risk losing their religion forever.
I am, to a certain extent anti-Muslim, insofar as they want to take over the country, no other race or religion has ever done that.
What will happen is, because at some point, the nationals will make a stand, riots the length and breadth of the country, and it will happen, its now too late to stop it.
Just a question of when.
Don't forget, they have no tolerance, and if they really believe their religion, its their duty to wipe out all non believers.
What will happen is, because at some point, the nationals will make a stand, riots the length and breadth of the country, and it will happen, its now too late to stop it.
Just a question of when.
Don't forget, they have no tolerance, and if they really believe their religion, its their duty to wipe out all non believers.
I am almost sorry to say this, but I welcome any surge in anti-muslim feeling in Britain. This is because of my firmly held belief that it is the most insidious and vile threat to my culture and beliefs, and to Western culture and beliefs, that has ever been seen. It only needs to grow by small degrees every year and the result is inevitable.
I have read the Koran - have you ? I took the trouble to find out. Even though it is apparently only ' valid ' in the original glorious Arabic (how very ecumenical of them), it just reads alien. Give it a try, it's online if you don't want to buy it.
With each successive incident they fire more and more shots into their feet. I welcome it, I hope they self-destruct, but I fear they will not.
I wouldn't want to see any violence, but I would like to see a gently firm line - e.g. sorry but we can't grant planning permission for mosques, not just now thanks. Try again later.
I have read the Koran - have you ? I took the trouble to find out. Even though it is apparently only ' valid ' in the original glorious Arabic (how very ecumenical of them), it just reads alien. Give it a try, it's online if you don't want to buy it.
With each successive incident they fire more and more shots into their feet. I welcome it, I hope they self-destruct, but I fear they will not.
I wouldn't want to see any violence, but I would like to see a gently firm line - e.g. sorry but we can't grant planning permission for mosques, not just now thanks. Try again later.
I'm not sure if I'm one of the 'marxist, woolly true huggers' that you're addressing (given that I'm not a marxist, and as far as I know only ruby27 openly declares herself a marxist), Bewlay, but I am pro-immigration and sceptical of the hysteria surrounding Islam, so I suppose I can answer.
To be honest, I think it's rather daft to predict an uprising or civil war at all in the modern UK. Public opinion has been far more bitter than it is now in 1989-90, 1973-4, mid-30s, 1912-14, and the only times I'd say we've ever really come close to violence or revolution - the 1840s, and 1832. There was no civil war or uprising in any of these instances, and the simple fact of the matter is that while there's division and fierce argument over certain issues, it's not any worse than it's been in the past.
But I digress.
Your question was on islamophobia. There's pretty widespread misconception about Islam, as the vast majority of scholars on the subject will tell you - such as (I have notes buried somewhere on a lecture I attended on the subject by a scholar who gave quite an enlightening view on this with specific reference to the Koran, I can try and dig them up when I have time, and I'll also dig up some sources to support this if I get time).
The worst excesses of Islam are truly no worse than the worst excesses of Christianity, but whipping up fear over Islam is something that's extremely easy to do - just as it was in the case of the Irish throughout the C19 and with the Jews in the early C20. So I think we are perfectly legitimate in bieng disgusted and condemning of the extremists who seem to spew populist rhetoric and sound more powerful than they actually are (such as Ahmadinejad) within Islam, but we should be equally distrustful of those same figures within our society.
To be honest, I think it's rather daft to predict an uprising or civil war at all in the modern UK. Public opinion has been far more bitter than it is now in 1989-90, 1973-4, mid-30s, 1912-14, and the only times I'd say we've ever really come close to violence or revolution - the 1840s, and 1832. There was no civil war or uprising in any of these instances, and the simple fact of the matter is that while there's division and fierce argument over certain issues, it's not any worse than it's been in the past.
But I digress.
Your question was on islamophobia. There's pretty widespread misconception about Islam, as the vast majority of scholars on the subject will tell you - such as (I have notes buried somewhere on a lecture I attended on the subject by a scholar who gave quite an enlightening view on this with specific reference to the Koran, I can try and dig them up when I have time, and I'll also dig up some sources to support this if I get time).
The worst excesses of Islam are truly no worse than the worst excesses of Christianity, but whipping up fear over Islam is something that's extremely easy to do - just as it was in the case of the Irish throughout the C19 and with the Jews in the early C20. So I think we are perfectly legitimate in bieng disgusted and condemning of the extremists who seem to spew populist rhetoric and sound more powerful than they actually are (such as Ahmadinejad) within Islam, but we should be equally distrustful of those same figures within our society.
Note: On the other aspect of your question, regarding the 'acceptance' of islamophobia - I'm not any more unaccepting of Islamophobia than I am of any other view that I disagree with. That doesn't mean I can't attack it though - seriously, where would be the fun in that? Attacking a view isn't the same as not accepting it.
Something else that might be of interest to put things in perspective:
The following map indicates numbers of Muslims as a % of population across the world:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6c/ Islam_percentage_by_country.png
The following map indicates numbers of Muslims as a % of population across the world:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6c/ Islam_percentage_by_country.png
Whiffy - I accept that your views are your own, but I believe them to be completely abhorrent. What threatens this world more than the actions of a tiny militant and vocal minority are the hate filled lurkers waiting for a bandwagon.
Have you read the Bible? It describes the actions of a vile omnipotent killer, indescriminate and uncaring in His intentions. I care little for the Koran either, but I wouldn't suggest that you follow a moral code laid out by either.
We're not hugely more enlightened than them. It was in my grandmother's lifetime that women were not given the full right to vote. Imagine that. Really think about that. Then try to say that Islamic countries are centuries behind us.
If they are to grow (and I mean that in a completely unpatronising way) then help, support and tolerance are clearly the way forward rather than hate.
Have you read the Bible? It describes the actions of a vile omnipotent killer, indescriminate and uncaring in His intentions. I care little for the Koran either, but I wouldn't suggest that you follow a moral code laid out by either.
We're not hugely more enlightened than them. It was in my grandmother's lifetime that women were not given the full right to vote. Imagine that. Really think about that. Then try to say that Islamic countries are centuries behind us.
If they are to grow (and I mean that in a completely unpatronising way) then help, support and tolerance are clearly the way forward rather than hate.
I'll just add that I am an Indie rock chick and I have no take that Cd.
I am intolerant of people who walk past me in the steet only to stand in front of me or suddenly walk at a snails pace. Other than that I am to self absorbed to worry about a sharia uprising that is never going to happen. Fortunately those with moderate views are the majority, and those that think and act like Muslims are the cause of all the problems in the UK today, need to work a little harder to make their lives better and to see the good that is in almost everything.
Are any of the other wooly tree hugging lefties sad that it is far tooo cold for flip flops and sandals?
I am intolerant of people who walk past me in the steet only to stand in front of me or suddenly walk at a snails pace. Other than that I am to self absorbed to worry about a sharia uprising that is never going to happen. Fortunately those with moderate views are the majority, and those that think and act like Muslims are the cause of all the problems in the UK today, need to work a little harder to make their lives better and to see the good that is in almost everything.
Are any of the other wooly tree hugging lefties sad that it is far tooo cold for flip flops and sandals?
Spot on, i have no problem with any other race or religion, i was once a tolerant person but i feel threatend by this Muslim rash that is spreading. I am affraid that the people in charge don't give a fk because they are making money out of it all. I want shot of every muslim in this country and i want to show them what will happen if they fk with us. And i do say it in Tescos.... fk em.
Would you let them stay if they renounced their faith. You know, like the Nazis did with Jehovas witnesses....or..... would you kick all Muslims out of the country, or designate special areas for them to live because you couldn't trust they had truly stopped believing in the pillars of Islam. Oh hang on a minute, thats what the Nazis did to the Jews isn't it?
Do you honestly not see how your intolerance and largely irrational fear of apparently ALL muslims is playing into the hands of a few nutty terrorists and creating a farther rift between us and our predominantly moderate Muslim population?
Do you honestly not see how your intolerance and largely irrational fear of apparently ALL muslims is playing into the hands of a few nutty terrorists and creating a farther rift between us and our predominantly moderate Muslim population?
I don't want them to renounce thier religion, i want them to renouce are fkg hand outs and acts of kindness and return to thier little poo hole ran by islamic nutters who they ran from in the first place from to our shores, because Islam is cruel and not logical. Now you might want this rubbish to walk amongst you and your kin and you have your right to your limpness, i and many others don't want this rubbish anywhere near them or thier kin and are fed up with people like yourself insisting we all crawl up our own rectums and deny the smell of coffee that reaks everywhere, well prob not there in middle class Utopia but the rest of can't escape it. The Jews wern't bombing the Germans and would Churchill allow Germans to walk free when we were at war with them, no, that would have been a stupid idea wouldn't it, bit like yours. we have spent millions on intagtation, in some cases it has worked, with the muslims it hasn't, 'bye bye ta ta fairwell, good luck when you get home', thats what i want.
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