Guantanamo suicides

[Zen]

3 people kill themselves after over 4 years in a cage. A great PR stunt or asymetrical warfare say the Septic Tanks ( Yanks ).What do AB ers think /

[sp1814]

Ward~Minter (I have now found the squiggly line on my keyboard).

No...I'm not going to rant, just make a point...why can't the people in Guantanamo just be tried?

You say "you can bet your bottom dollar those that died were evil fundamentalists", but wouldn't it be better if they were actually proven to be evil fundamentalists?

Dolly - I too misread your first post, but read it again and got what you were saying and don't take it to be racist at all.

However, I think your follow on post regarding water shortages is a bit misguided as the biggest wasters of water are those secretly using their hose pipes and filling up their swimming pools at night....and frankly, I don't see many immigrants falling into that particular demographic.

[admarlow]

noxlunus (read obnoxious) thinks everyone who mentions race is racist.

[sp1814]

Ward~Minter

But without proving that these people are terrorists, what happens? Should they be held indefinitely?

You see, that's where the problem lies. Forget the actual terrorists, and think about the people related to the (whatever) percentage of innocents swept up in the net. For every innocent person held illegally (and it is illegal under international laws), you will spawn a whole load of young people who will begin to hate the West and see it's governments as the enemy.

...and so the cycle continues.

[sp1814]

Let me just clarify...I absolutely agree that the intelligence services should be targetting terrorist cells. I live in London and was in the Kings Cross area shortly before the second bomb went off on 7/7. I do not want to die in a terrorist blast.

This is why I want MI-5 to start arresting terrorists rather than electricians and young Muslem fellas who have been picked out by an informant who may or may not have had something against them.

[sp1814]

admarlow

I'm sure nox can speak for himself, but I honestly read Dolly's post as a 'get back to Ireland' rant before I re-read it. If nox is indeed Irish, I could understand him being offended.

God - I'm in a real placating mood this afternoon.

[WaldoMcFroog]

Dear Dolly,

My answer referred to the person who said this was a great PR stunt, but if the cap fits...

Regards,

Waldo

[Clanad]

After all this time, especially considering the attacks in Spain and the one suffered by London, a lot of people just don't get it. We are at war. Some knowledgeable military experts even go so far as to term it WW III. This is world wide attempt my Islamofacists to kill as many westerner infidels as they can. This should be expanded to include any Muslim that doesn't subscribe to their own Wahabist interpretations. They want to cut your head off with a dull knife, terminate all civil rights, subjugate women, convert all other religions to their belief and rule the world. What is it about those set of facts you don't understand? The US has a responsibility to ensure that dangerous people, once captured are not allowed to engage in future terrorist attacks. "America is at war, and these individuals are the combatants in that war," says David Bossie, president of Citizens United, a conservative grass-roots advocacy group in Sterling, Va. "If they were released, they would go back to the battlefield, wherever that battlefield might be. It could be Afghanistan; or Paris, France; or New York City." (Or London, my addition).
It should be noted that indefinite detention is not a new concept. The British used it in Northern Ireland against the Irish Republican Army.
Contd.

[Clanad]

Contd.

Understand... they cannot avail themselves of right to trial as a U.S. citizen might, and they are not prisoners of war in accordance with the Geneva Convention. (They are exceptionally well treated, however, as verified by the Red Cross). I think, if you feel strongly about their retention in Guantanamo, you should invite them to your house for an extended visit, no?

[sp1814]

Clanad

Okay...I hear what you're saying. They should just be kept at GTB until they die of old age.

All of them...which means that the ones who are actually innocent will have no chance to prove it.

By the way, how were they identified in the first place? Was it using the same spot on intelligence that we use to shot people that aren't actually involved in terrorism?

[jump79]

Considering the situation in Guantanamo Bay and the evident violation of human rights, can anyone see the difference between USA and China, at this point?

These prisoners were held captive shortly after 9/11, which is understandable given the volatility and fear that ensued (on USA's side)... but ever since then, there has been no further disclosure made to the public, regarding the grounds on which the prisoners are still being held captive ...after 5 years.

If there is such a strong case against these people, then why is there all this secrecy? Doesn't the American govt. realize that by not adducing any evidence to support their stance, they are only making themselves look like paranoid Islamophobics here?

Clanad, what evidence is there - other than the persistant reassurances of the American guards- that these prisoners are being treated well at the camp? The only footage which is shown on TV (as little as is allowed) is that of the prisoners bound in chains (hands and feet) being moved around by guards from one cell to another. I'm only stating what I have seen, by the way....

[lightoftruth]

Pericles would be furious if he saw the sorry state of "democracy" in the west

[Dolly1308]

Waldo I made the mistake of not understanding that you were replying to Zens' question .I honestly could not see what I had said that was bad enough for what I believed to be your tirade against me. If you had explained earlier this thread would not have taken the ugly turn which it did .And no the cap does not fit . Regards Dolly

[noxlumos]

Admarlow, yet again leaving us in doubt as to your ignorance. Why don't you just answer the question if you are going to post or do you have nothing better to do than snipe at me because I once dared to disagree with you?

Dolly, It's all very well explaining what you mean after saying something but it was an unfortunate turn of phrase to use and one which could have been taken a numbr of ways.Quite frankly the only reason I am in England is because I have business interests here and I won't be here forever.

[Clanad]

So what do you suggest, sp1814? Let's turn them loose... I think London would be a nice place, don't you? These were combatants captured in the early days of the fighting in Afghanistan and the captured individuals were part of the al-Qaida organization or the Taliban in Afghanistan, who were doing their level best to launch attacks to kill Americans, either on the battlefield or here in the United States. Twelve, among others that were released were later re-captured with weapons, presumably on their way to the next fight. Many elected officials have toured the facility and have all commented on the humane treatment, although many disagree with the overall policy.
I'm trying, as nicely as possible, to get ya'll to understand that these are not folks you want to make nice to... They are akin to the Japanese during and after the invasion of China... read "The Rape of Nanking", if you want a vivid description of what life under the Taliban would be like...

[maxximus]

says who?let's put them on trial (aka. o.j. or michael jackson style and pollute everyone's living room, or do we only do that when we need a diversion.) and see if they really are what we've been told, or are they just individuals protecting their home and country from an illegal, i repeat illegal invasion of their home and country. which you would think would be their right. you cannot fault an individual for having corrupt leaders that are installed by other corrupt leaders for protecting his home. i do understand what you are saying clanad, but let's see the evidence, let the innocent go free and condemn the guilty. the same applys to the saddam trial, i suffered months of o.j. post desert storm, why is it no saddam trial? what are we afraid of ? the truth maybe.

[Dom Tuk]

clanad....you state that the Red Cross has said that the dxetainees are being terated welll......could you please give me the source of your information. From what i remember reading, almost all the human rights agencies have lambasted the US govt for the sustained torture and lack of human rights that these detainees have been subjected to. Furthermore you state that this is a state of war, almost a WWIII but will not afford the detainees the rights to prisoner of war status. You wish to have your cake and eat it too!!

Most of what you say is regurgitating US propoganda. The propoganda that started 6 months before commencement of the Iraqi invasion. For a person who has shown so much astuteness and thinking in your past answers (even about religion), i am surprised that you havent grasped the reality from this quagmire of propoganda and fog of war.

[sp1814]

"Among the calamities of war may be jointly numbered the diminution of the love of truth, by the falsehoods which interest dictates and credulity encourages." (Samuel Johnson 1758).

[noxlumos]

clanad, I have always respected you even when not agreeing with you, but you seem to have no real grasp of exactly what that place is and what is taking place there. It's fine to be a patriot but not at the expense of your own pesonal credibility surely? There are worldwide cries for this place to be closed down as it is an embarassment to justice and humanity, I cannot recall any independant authority/organisation saying that the prisoners were well treated, quite the opposite if I recall, so I too would welcome any link to a full report by the Red Cross.All that being said thay visited Theresienstadt and gave a favourable report during the second world war (I don't have a link but very googleable). It's true that America are not the first to use interment and perhaps it's because I am from the north of Ireland where it was implemented by the UK govt that I am particularly distressed about it's use by a country which should lead the way in standards for it's behaviour.If you have information that will convict these men you must charge them and if not then you must let them go, that is the simplest and oldest of moral codes and one which people are comfortable with. You can't hold a man prisoner because you think he might commit a crime, I'm afraid for most people to back you , it needs proving as otherwise the US comes off as oppressors of the innocent. As it is the war in Iraq has cost it it's international repuation for the next decade or so, do you really want to end up being viewed a a vile, corrupt unjust country ad infinitum?

[admarlow]

Obnoxious - I did post, and said that I thought that martydom was a form of extreme PR stunt, so I tend to agree with the USA on this on, old noxey....