Begum Supreme Court Ruling Today

[fender62]

i wonder how this will turn out, the weka judges will erm probably let her return, thus allowing all the others to do the same, moneys no object or public safety only points of law matter.
https://news.sky.com/story/shamima-begum-is-bride-to-find-out-whether-she-can-return-to-the-uk-to-fight-citizenship-decision-12229127

[naomi24]

// It's also manifestly preferable for it to be *difficult* for a Minister to revoke anybody's citizenship//

Not in my opinion. Enemies of this country - and she's one of them - should be kept out. Why anyone wants them here - or to even to give them an opportunity to return - remains a mystery to me.

[jim360]

That seems to very obviously miss the point. The Minister shouldn't have arbitrary, unchallenged power to determine who is or who is not an enemy of this country. Whether that decision is correct or not, I want it to be challengeable, subject to scrutiny and to very high standards.
.

[naomi24]

How very noble. Personally I wouldn't waste time or money on her. We don't need a court or an enquiry to tell us what she's done.

[jim360]

Perhaps we don't. But legal process still applies, and still should apply. Legal protections are meaningless if they only apply to the obviously innocent.

[Paigntonian]

My knee-jerk reaction would be to condemn her out of hand. But my conscience tells me that perhaps she was, is, just a naive and rather stupid girl who got way out of her depth. Maybe compassion is undeserved here but I am not at all sure. I scent a little of Burn the Witch.

[New Judge]

No it shouldn't be easy, Jim and it's right that the courts should fully examine a case where necessary. But the one most important thing that has been maintained here is that Ms Begum has been banned from entry whilst these enquiries are made. There is no doubt that had she been allowed to return here, whatever the decision of the SC, she would never have been deported. Once people gain a foothold here, however illegally, they are rarely thrown out. Ms Begum would certainly not have been and it was right and proper that her arguments were held in her absence. It's unfortunate that she was not able to instruct her counsel or give evidence on her own behalf but I think the court and her counsel had all the information it needed to come to a conclusion.

[naomi24]

Paigntonian, she wasn’t naïve. She’s been raised with the philosophy and knew exactly what she was doing. I’ve no sympathy whatsoever.

Actually, Jim, you make me laugh - but not in a good way. You want things to be challengeable and subject to scrutiny, but you’re happy to ‘no platform’ or silence anyone who opposes your views. I’m not even going to ask you how that works. Experience is all so no need for further discussion on that score.

[Paigntonian]

I do remember an interview with a BBC reporter in whatever camp she was in. It was very much in her interest to get her 'message' across. And mid-interview she answered her mobile phone. It was astonishing.

[jim360]

In the first place, you aren't comparing like with like: this is a legal right we're talking about in the current thread, and it should be pretty obvious that legal rights are an entirely different kettle of fish from, say, what goes on on twitter. Losing a twitter account is not "silencing" anybody; it's just losing a twitter account. It's the online equivalent of being uninvited to a party, or to being thrown out of a pub for breaking the bar rules.

If you can't see the massive difference between the protection of legal rights, which is to say a protection from government, and having tweets or social media posts deleted, that's your lookout.

[Paigntonian]

The other thing that I thought was very strange about that first interview with the BBC was that she didn't mention dead child. If she was aiming at sympathy, or if she'd been rehearsed, one would think she would have mentioned it.

[sanmac]

Is Begum legally a British citizen?

[Jackdaw33]

Not now.

[jim360]

At the moment, she is not. She still can appeal against that decision (for example, on the grounds that it has made her stateless), although only assuming her circumstances change, which may be a long time if ever -- at the moment she's in a detention camp in Kurdish-occupied Syria, I think, and she can do nothing from there. In particular, she can't instruct her legal team.

[sanmac]

Thanks, JD, then why is Jim360 arguing that she still has legal rights there?...Very strange.

[naomi24]

Jim, Twitter? What are you twittering about?

Are you in any doubt that she did what she did - and if not why do you have a problem with the ruling?

[jim360]

I can only refer you to the Supreme Court's judgement, which I linked on an earlier post.

I may myself have misunderstood, of course, but as I understand it, the ruling today concerned primarily whether or not Begum should be allowed to return to the UK to contest the revocation of her citizenship. She has not been; however, the contest itself wasn't decided, and has been left up in the air:

"The appropriate response to the problem in the present case is for the appeal to be stayed until Ms Begum is in a position to play an effective part in it without the safety of the public being compromised. That is not a perfect solution, as it is not known how long it may be before that is possible."

This is verbatim from paragraph 134 of the judgement. Earlier context shows that the only remaining appeal to be decided is Begum's Appeal against the original decision to revoke her citizenship.

[jim360]

I haven't stated that I have a problem with this ruling.

[Jackdaw33]

//"The appropriate response to the problem in the present case is for the appeal to be stayed until Ms Begum is in a position to play an effective part in it without the safety of the public being compromised.\\

In other words, never.

[sanmac]

The second paragraph appears to indicate that the case should be placed on the back-burner and let it simmer away until it completely evaporates, including the odor.

[jim360]

Not necessarily -- she can contest the decision effectively while outside the country. More to the point, she can't contest it from inside a prison camp in Kurdish-occupied Syria; but, as the Judgement says, that is (a) not the Government's fault, and (b) hers.