Labour And Lib Dems 'would Fight Grammar School Plans'

[mikey4444]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37002495

I'm surprised that these new plans by Mrs May hasn't been mentioned on AB before. For me, I think Grammar Schools should remain in the 1960's.

[andy-hughes]

Naomi - //andy-hughes at 11.32. You're making that up. //

What am I 'making up'? That the Education Secretary is sitting on the fence? She was quoted in the news last night as saying she has 'an open mind ...' - that is political-speak for sitting on the fence.

The PM has declared her support for the grammar school system.

So what exactly am I 'making up'?

[naomi24]

andy-hughes, that they are both //looking down on the 'ordinary people' and condescending to give the brighter oiks a leg-up. //

[andy-hughes]

Naomi - //andy-hughes at 11:39. For those who, like you, clearly aren't suited to Grammar school, the option to leave and go to a Comprehensive school is available. Why didn't you do that? //

The 'option' was categorically not available!

My parents were working-class aspirational Conservatives, so having two of their three children in grammar school education was seen as something to be proud of.

Like most of my generation who found themselves in an unsuitable situation, I sucked it up, kept my mouth shut, and lived with it.

Times change - thank heavens.

[andy-hughes]

Naomi - //andy-hughes, that they are both //looking down on the 'ordinary people' and condescending to give the brighter oiks a leg-up. //

That is my perception, and my opinion, so I am not 'making up' anything.

[bhg481]

I attended a grammar school in the late 50's-early sixties. It was a very old school, founded in the 16th century, with a lot of history. It was NOT snobbish, elitist, pretentious or divisive and I loved every single minute of it.
You were unlucky A-H.

[andy-hughes]

bhg481 - //I attended a grammar school in the late 50's-early sixties. It was a very old school, founded in the 16th century, with a lot of history. It was NOT snobbish, elitist, pretentious or divisive and I loved every single minute of it.
You were unlucky A-H. //

I was indeed.

But like all of us, my views and attitudes are coloured by my experience, so my education colours my view of education.

[zebo]

I failed the 11+ and went to a SM for a year then at 12+ I was transferred to a GS from where I went on to college and became a teacher. The GS suited me, I was academically inclined, my brother wasn't he left at 16, did an apprentice ship and has his own business. I then taught in SM, GS and Comprehensive schools. It's my view that the problem in the 50s and 60s wasn't the GS who were doing their job of educating the academic pupils, it was the SM schools that were seen as being somehow inferior, it was the attitude that tradesmen were in some way inferior and the staff gravitated to the GS. There seems now to be a change of the balance, there is a realisation that plumbers etc are essential, especially when you can't find one, and maybe the reintroduction of proper apprenticeships will give the less academic pupils something to aim for. Schools can offer the best education possible but if the recipients don't recognise its value, they're wasting their time and, has been reported recently, one of the most disadvantaged group is working-class white boys who see nothing to work for, they often lack the home support that other ethnic groups enjoy.

[naomi24]

Andy-hughes, There you go again with ‘perception’ and ‘opinion’. You have charged two people with harbouring negative and snobbish views of a section of society but since you have no evidence to support your ‘perception’ and ‘opinion’, that claim must be ‘made up’.

What a pity you couldn’t abandon Grammar school and leave the place open for someone who would appreciate it. I’ve seen people struggle in Grammar school, and it’s not a pretty sight. I’m surprised the school didn’t make the decision for you as my school did for people who were square pegs in round holes.

[youngmafbog]

Children do not learn at the same rate, in addition some kids are clever, some kids are thick. It makes no sense to pretend everyone gets the same education, rather we should give an appropriate education. This is the only way we will get ahead in business, we cannot afford for a large proportion of society to left behind when we need them leading business just because they were born poor.

I didnt have a grammar school education, I had a private one, but I really dont see why a kid with promise should be denied the opportunity of getting on like I did.

[Togo]

ah posts.
//I can offer direct experience here - I attended a grammar school in the mid-sxties.

It was snobbish, elitist, pretentious, divisive, and I hated every single minute of it.

So - as a product of the 'grammar school system', I would not wish it on anyone.//

Read I hated it, so would deny anyone who would thrive and benefit from a Grammar School education the opportunity.

[andy-hughes]

Togo - //ah posts.
//I can offer direct experience here - I attended a grammar school in the mid-sxties.

It was snobbish, elitist, pretentious, divisive, and I hated every single minute of it.

So - as a product of the 'grammar school system', I would not wish it on anyone.//

Read I hated it, so would deny anyone who would thrive and benefit from a Grammar School education the opportunity. //

My opinion of the grammar school system is coloured by my experience, but not based on it - my dislike of elitist education is because it is elitist, and therefore not a good concept. My experience of it was dreadful, but had it been good, my opinion would remain the same.

I am not trying to 'deny' anyone anything - quite the opposite. I think everyone should have the same educational opportunities, not be seen to be 'assisted' into a school they cannot otherwise attend because of a background about which they have no choice.

[andy-hughes]

Naomi - //Andy-hughes, There you go again with ‘perception’ and ‘opinion’. You have charged two people with harbouring negative and snobbish views of a section of society but since you have no evidence to support your ‘perception’ and ‘opinion’, that claim must be ‘made up’. //

'Charged'? Hardly! I am passing opinion on a debate website, I am not hauling the two into the Old Bailey to explain themselves!

[andy-hughes]

YMB - //I didnt have a grammar school education, I had a private one, but I really dont see why a kid with promise should be denied the opportunity of getting on like I did. //

Nor do I - which is why educational opportunities should be available to everyone equally, then we wouldn't need a grammar school system.

[andy-hughes]

Naomi - //What a pity you couldn’t abandon Grammar school and leave the place open for someone who would appreciate it. I’ve seen people struggle in Grammar school, and it’s not a pretty sight. I’m surprised the school didn’t make the decision for you as my school did for people who were square pegs in round holes. //

It was a different time then - grammar schools were full of their own importance - they would never admit that they had failed any pupil, only because it would reflect badly on them.

I doubt things have changed - but once again that is an opinion, so I am probably making it up.

[Togo]

But of course the more able must be forced into an environment that does them no good whatsoever, does not stretch them, and certainly does not develope the brighter young minds. No indeed we must supress cleverness in them in the name of equality and inclusivity. Dumb down, and level the standards. All of course rooted in the politics of envy. Whilst of course our "Liberal" betters send their kids to private schools and academies.

[meglet]

I live in a town with four grammar schools (two for girls, two for boys) and attended one 25-30 years ago. It was pretty elitist then, full of white middle class girls, and in recent years has massively extended the catchment area. Some girls who have won a place there are travelling an hour by train each way from as far away as East London (I'm in Southend) and a lot are from ethnic minority backgrounds. They are getting a first class education BUT their parents are having to shell out a packet. The school uniform is well over £300 and the school trips are not cheap either.

[Togo]

Paahh, off out for a walk. Do me more good than wasting breath on the nonsense being peddled about Education policy. Either we need the clever kids or we don't.

[andy-hughes]

Togo - //But of course the more able must be forced into an environment that does them no good whatsoever, does not stretch them, and certainly does not develope the brighter young minds. No indeed we must supress cleverness in them in the name of equality and inclusivity. Dumb down, and level the standards. All of course rooted in the politics of envy. Whilst of course our "Liberal" betters send their kids to private schools and academies. //

If you read my posts, you will see that my position is that a high level of education should be available to everyone - which is the exact opposite of the point you are making.

[andy-hughes]

Togo - //Paahh, off out for a walk. Do me more good than wasting breath on the nonsense being peddled about Education policy. Either we need the clever kids or we don't. //

We need ' the clever kids' - but we need an education system that serves the 'not clever kids' equally well - not one that cherry-picks the brightest ones for certain schools, and leaves the rest to sink in underfunded schools.

That is the elitism of the selection system, and it is morally wrong.

[youngmafbog]

//that a high level of education should be available to everyone //

Wrong. Not everyone is suited to it.

Select the best and brightest and train them up to make this country great. Then give the rest an education that best suits them. If that is an accountant, fine, if it is a plumber fine but dont try to make all equal.

We (humans) are not!