What's The Issue With Self Service?
News1 min ago
Britain Is A Christian Country - Get Over It. So Says Eric Pickles
123 Answers
in an attack on Atheists.
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Is he right? And what's it got to do with him whether you or I believe or not?
http://
Is he right? And what's it got to do with him whether you or I believe or not?
Answers
Wow, AoG. You seem impervious to the failure of your logic on this issue. It is not atheists, militant or otherwise, who are trying to tell others what to believe ,or to impose anything on others - rather, it is those, like, apparently,
15:32 Mon 07th Apr 2014
What's Shier law - never come across that before.
AOG, Pickles gets loads of jokes about his size from all quarters, the difference with you is that he can take them.
For the record, I do not want to see Christian law or Sharia, let's have Britain with a secular law system, one that can embrace modern society at large, and not some antique system from decades ago.
AOG, Pickles gets loads of jokes about his size from all quarters, the difference with you is that he can take them.
For the record, I do not want to see Christian law or Sharia, let's have Britain with a secular law system, one that can embrace modern society at large, and not some antique system from decades ago.
"why shouldn't some councils be allowed to start off their meetings with prayer if they so wish..."
Why not indeed? Except that councils are made up of several people, and if some councillors objected to prayer for whatever reason, what would the new regulations mean for them? If my own past experience (not as a councillor, of course, but in the Scout movement which also has or had a large element of communal prayer) is anything to go by, it will mean sitting around in an awkward, embarrassed silence, whilst everyone else around prays for some length of time that could be anything from a few seconds to several minutes. By any measure, delaying the meeting for a prayer is a waste of time, and yet presumably if the "council" decides to hold prayer, this is an imposition on those who do not wish to pray.
No, the dictating, if any, is being done by those who would insist on holding prayer as a formal part of the meeting. It is absolutely not dictatorial to say "You know what, if you want to pray then you can do so privately, and let's spend the meeting time on actual local politics."
Why not indeed? Except that councils are made up of several people, and if some councillors objected to prayer for whatever reason, what would the new regulations mean for them? If my own past experience (not as a councillor, of course, but in the Scout movement which also has or had a large element of communal prayer) is anything to go by, it will mean sitting around in an awkward, embarrassed silence, whilst everyone else around prays for some length of time that could be anything from a few seconds to several minutes. By any measure, delaying the meeting for a prayer is a waste of time, and yet presumably if the "council" decides to hold prayer, this is an imposition on those who do not wish to pray.
No, the dictating, if any, is being done by those who would insist on holding prayer as a formal part of the meeting. It is absolutely not dictatorial to say "You know what, if you want to pray then you can do so privately, and let's spend the meeting time on actual local politics."
I know, emmie - shame - I'm not advocating revolution but rather rapid evolution and perhaps that is occurring. Society changes and so must the law and supporting systems, and religion must take a backseat as it has become moribund - particularly when the CoE remains mute on most contentious moral and ethical subjects, a virtually complete lack of leadership on their part. Whether you agree with the issue or not, there has been very little ecclesiastical input on the issue of Christian/gay hotels, the wearing of the symbols of religion, and a host of other 'contentious' matters.
However, the law should be above religion.
However, the law should be above religion.
woofgang
/// AOG, we have been here before. Council meetings which begin with prayer either require all councillors to be there, which is neither polite to those who wish to pray nor to those who do not wish to be in the presence of people praying. If al councillors are not required to be there, then this gives an opportunity for private conversation and agreement in the absence of some council members. ///
Those councillors who wish not to take part in the introductory prayers are not forced to take part, they can join in the meeting later after these prayers have taken place.
/// Additionally, I would rather see councillors spending their paid time on council affairs rather than being "paid to pray" As I said this earlier, i speak as one who believes in god and prays...but on my own time! ///
We are not talking full scale Mass here, just how long does it take to say The Lord's Prayer?
/// AOG, we have been here before. Council meetings which begin with prayer either require all councillors to be there, which is neither polite to those who wish to pray nor to those who do not wish to be in the presence of people praying. If al councillors are not required to be there, then this gives an opportunity for private conversation and agreement in the absence of some council members. ///
Those councillors who wish not to take part in the introductory prayers are not forced to take part, they can join in the meeting later after these prayers have taken place.
/// Additionally, I would rather see councillors spending their paid time on council affairs rather than being "paid to pray" As I said this earlier, i speak as one who believes in god and prays...but on my own time! ///
We are not talking full scale Mass here, just how long does it take to say The Lord's Prayer?
@AoG, I think you have this the wrong way round.
"Those councillors who wish not to take part in the introductory prayers are not forced to take part, they can join in the meeting later after these prayers have taken place. "
If some councillors wish to engage in communal prayer, it is they should be joining the meeting later, after their prayers have taken place- not inflict those prayers on those with different or no belief in a secular workplace.
I think woofgang and DTC have summarised the situation and the solution very well.
"Those councillors who wish not to take part in the introductory prayers are not forced to take part, they can join in the meeting later after these prayers have taken place. "
If some councillors wish to engage in communal prayer, it is they should be joining the meeting later, after their prayers have taken place- not inflict those prayers on those with different or no belief in a secular workplace.
I think woofgang and DTC have summarised the situation and the solution very well.
"Those councillors who wish not to take part in the introductory prayers are not forced to take part, they can join in the meeting later after these prayers have taken place. "
Is that really true? I'd have thought that councillors should be required to attend the full meeting. And even if it were, this amounts to excluding people from a meeting for religious reasons, and just wastes even more time as you have to invite the non-praying councillors back in to take their places. Far better and simpler to devote the full meeting to council matters, and then leave prayers as a private matter for those who wish to do so. Then no-one is being dictated to and, you'd have thought, everyone should be happy. Those who wish to pray can do so. Those who do not needn't feel obliged to leave or to sit uncomfortably through a prayer. And all councillors get to spend time trying to do their job.
Is that really true? I'd have thought that councillors should be required to attend the full meeting. And even if it were, this amounts to excluding people from a meeting for religious reasons, and just wastes even more time as you have to invite the non-praying councillors back in to take their places. Far better and simpler to devote the full meeting to council matters, and then leave prayers as a private matter for those who wish to do so. Then no-one is being dictated to and, you'd have thought, everyone should be happy. Those who wish to pray can do so. Those who do not needn't feel obliged to leave or to sit uncomfortably through a prayer. And all councillors get to spend time trying to do their job.
This is utter crap from the only Minister visible from space.
We are a multi-cultural and multi-religious society, and have been for ages. I am an atheist and I suppose you could call me militant, as I see it my job to argue against thiests when they start to interfere is areas outside of their narrow range of interests.
The numbers of Christians in Britain taken from the 2011 Census need to be taken with a wheelbarrow of salt. I worked on the Census, helping people to complete their forms
( I was amazed at how many functionally illiterate people I cam across )
When it came to the religion question, many people told me that they never went to church, didn't get their kids baptised, and didn't really believe " but you better put me down as a Christian I suppose) In other words, just a word to describe themselves with. No interest and no commitment whatsoever. How many people do we all know that got married in a church but have never set foot in one over since ?
Anyway, its none of Pickles business what we all believe. Rather a large foot in rather a large mouth it would seem here, from Mr Pickles.
We are a multi-cultural and multi-religious society, and have been for ages. I am an atheist and I suppose you could call me militant, as I see it my job to argue against thiests when they start to interfere is areas outside of their narrow range of interests.
The numbers of Christians in Britain taken from the 2011 Census need to be taken with a wheelbarrow of salt. I worked on the Census, helping people to complete their forms
( I was amazed at how many functionally illiterate people I cam across )
When it came to the religion question, many people told me that they never went to church, didn't get their kids baptised, and didn't really believe " but you better put me down as a Christian I suppose) In other words, just a word to describe themselves with. No interest and no commitment whatsoever. How many people do we all know that got married in a church but have never set foot in one over since ?
Anyway, its none of Pickles business what we all believe. Rather a large foot in rather a large mouth it would seem here, from Mr Pickles.
I am more relaxed on the school front, emmie, if it is taught as Ethics & Comparative Religion, with a clear understanding that Religion is/was a means to explaining the inexplicable, laying down general behaviour codes, the cause of conflict (even in modern and contemporary history)and a (original) base to a lot of law systems. For those of faith, you are right, use a faith-based school.
I had the dubious honour of winning the Middle School Prize for Divinity (for a paper on Comparative Religion) and then failing the O level - it fell on the same day as Advanced Maths and, aged 14 - though I was all but 15, I decided that I was not going to be a bishop.
Perhaps God does exist, sparing the country of "moi!"
Perhaps God does exist, sparing the country of "moi!"
It would seem that some long for what can only be called "State atheism", wasn't it the Soviet Union who adopted this stance?
/// Throughout the history of the Soviet Union (1922-1991), Soviet authorities suppressed and persecuted various forms of Christianity to different extents depending on the particular era. Soviet policy, based on the ideology of Marxism-Leninism, made atheism the official doctrine of the Soviet Union. Marxism-Leninism has consistently advocated the control, suppression, and the elimination of religious beliefs. ///
Well I prefer the freedom to make a choice, but one of my choices wouldn't be this.
/// Throughout the history of the Soviet Union (1922-1991), Soviet authorities suppressed and persecuted various forms of Christianity to different extents depending on the particular era. Soviet policy, based on the ideology of Marxism-Leninism, made atheism the official doctrine of the Soviet Union. Marxism-Leninism has consistently advocated the control, suppression, and the elimination of religious beliefs. ///
Well I prefer the freedom to make a choice, but one of my choices wouldn't be this.
There is a significant difference between the following positions:
1. "Let's keep religion out of official state business."
2. "Let's not allow anyone to practise their religion under any circumstances whatsoever, to the extent that it will become a criminal offence."
It's not a difficult difference to spot, really.
1. "Let's keep religion out of official state business."
2. "Let's not allow anyone to practise their religion under any circumstances whatsoever, to the extent that it will become a criminal offence."
It's not a difficult difference to spot, really.
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