Should They Of Printed The Letter?

[mccfluff]

bit of a debate going on here, should the paper of printed this (ex) reader's letter?

I think it should of been binned as that's were this sort of garbage thinking should reside, others think it should of been printed if only to show what sort of idiots walk our streets

http://www.holdthefrontpage.co.uk/2013/news/reader-cancels-paper-over-perverted-daley-coverage/

[pixie373]

You have made a comparison in your statistics, sp (i don't know whether those are correct), but you've compared the number of out sportspeople with the number out in the general population.
Whether they are unwilling to come out (i see no reason why they should either way), or whether there are fewer in professional sport, is impossible to say. We also seem to assume that anyone who hasn't declared otherwise is heterosexual. How many professional sportspeople have publicly declared they're heterosexual? Even fewer, i presume. Equality will be when nobody feels the need to say anything.

[sp1814]

pixie

No I haven't.

Please skip back a page and look at my post.

I said that there are only a few out gay sports stars.

On the Wikipedia page, there are 160 listed (worldwide, not just in the UK).

jomifl misunderstood me, and thought that I meant proportionally there were few sports stars.

I'm happy to carry on explaining this, because I think it's important.

You ask "How many professional sportspeople have publicly declared they're heterosexual".

Straight people don't need to, because people assume heterosexuality because the maths dictate it.

[sp1814]

pixie

Some more maths.

If there are 160 out professional sports stars, and the number of gay people in the world is 2% of the population, the statistically speaking, there are few out gay people in sport! both as an absolute number and as a proportional number.

I do not condemn gay people for staying in the closet if they are in a field where they feel it would be disadvantageous to be free to openly date who they want, but it must be galling for many who see their straight friends openly dating, getting engaged and marrying out in the open, whereas gay sportspeople who wish to remain in the closet have to sneak around living in fear that at some point they'll be exposed by one of the tabloids.

When you say that straight people don't announce their sexuality, I, afraid you're wrong. They announce it all the time...implicitly - by dating members of the oppose sex, marrying, having affairs etc.

[jomifl]

sp,
/'So few' is an absolute number/ if you think that is true then it explains why you don't understand my point.
You also don't appear to understand that relative numbers and proportions are what is important. If a bank gave you £10 per year interest on a £10 deposit that would be a pretty good rate of return but if they gave you the same amount on a £1000 deposit then that wouldn't be quite so good by a factor of 100. If I can be of any further help, don't hesitate to ask ;o)

[sp1814]

jomifl

Are there more than 8,000 sportspeople in the world?

[jomifl]

sp I have no idea but if I had to make a 'guess' and you want my 'opinion' would say that even if you only consider the participants in the 2013 London Marathon then there are at least 37,000. How many of them were gay? I have no idea but if the proportion is the same as in the general population there should have been 555 or thereabouts. If you include all the people who participate in sport of some kind whether amateur of professional then It could easily amount to many millions perhaps even billions.

[sp1814]

jomifl

Incidentally - we're debating a point that you brought in, rather than me. If you go back to what I wrote - I said that there are so few out sports stars. Are you saying that you disagree with that, and if so - why?

[sp1814]

jomifl

I think I know where you went wrong now.

Re-read what I wrote:

"there are so few LGBT sports stars who are open."

I wasn't talking about gay sports stars who are still in the closet - that's an unknowable number. My point is that the number of 'out' sportspeople is very few.

Therefore in what way is saying that there are very few open sports people incorrect?

[jomifl]

Because you were using the word few in a relative sense. I you had said there were only 150 outed sportspersons there would be no quibble. As soon as you used the term 'few' the questions 'how many is a few' and 'out of how many' arise because you are suggesting something unusual or unexpected without saying why.

[sp1814]

jomifl

You wrote:

"Because you were using the word few in a relative sense"

Nope.

Look at my original post on the matter. I simply wrote that there are few open gay sports stars.

Even if I meant 'relatively', I'm still correct, because if you take the number of sports stars in the world, and you look at the number of out gay sportspeople, they are relatively few compared to the percentage of out gay people in the general public.

The maths don't lie.

[jomifl]

Sp,/ I simply wrote that there are few open gay sports stars./
What was the point of saying that? It is a pointless statement in absolute terms and a meaningless statement in relative terms. You obviously meant to make some kind of point.
/look at the number of out gay sportspeople, they are relatively few compared to the percentage of out gay people in the general public. /
That is because sportspeople is a subset of the population, there have to be fewer. Of course as I said before we don't know how many because there are not sufficient stats. to arrive at a figure. It is really that simple.

[sp1814]

Ah ha!

Can you now see where you went wrong?

It seems that now, you are arguing against the point I raised, rather than it's validity.

Do you accept that you were wrong to challenge my statement that there are only a few out sportspeople.

Go on.

Say it.

It will be cathartic.

[sp1814]

You challenged me on whether I was right to say that there was few open sports stars.

Now you've switched attack.

The reason why I celebrate sports stars coming out is because unlike the rest of society, the number of gay sporting heroes is surprisingly small.

Every single famous person who comes out is basically saying, "I am not ashamed of myself, and I don't need to scurry around in the shadows".

It simply presents a better image of 'gayness' to young people who might otherwise feel dirty, ashamed and worried.

It does no harm, and loads of good.

[pixie373]

Your post at 10:41 has repeated what i said. So i think you're agreeing that your comparison is with the general population. As jom says, the number means nothing by itself.

[sp1814]

pixie373

Exactly - and that's where jomifl went wrong.

It took ages for me to explain it, but I think I got there in the end.

It goes like this.

I said that there a very few openly gay people in professional sports.

Looking at the Wiki page I supplied, the number is about 160. If you think about the number of sports people in the world, that's a very low figure.

Now, if you agree with the figure of 2% being the number of (openly) gay people in the general population, then the number of openly gay people in sport is low as an absolute number and as a relative number.

I'm not sure what jomifl was trying to get at, but it was interesting to hear his theories and ideas.

[jomifl]

Where jomifl 'went wrong' was trying to have a rational discussion where logic and simple arithmetic are ruled out. If and when sp realises that you cannot divide apples by pears and understands percentages then I might return to the fray otherwise I'm 'outa here'.

[sp1814]

jomifl

Nope...once again - I said that there are few openly gay sports stars.

There are 160.

Is that a few or a massive amount?

Worldwide.

I say it's a few.

Both logically and mathematically.

It's not a large number.

But let me go through it again.

Number of professional sports people in the world? Let's say it's 50,000?

Number of out gay sports people in the world. 160 (according to Wikipedia).

That's 0.32%.

Number of out gay people in the general population. Roughly 2%.

Proportionally, there's only 'a few' out gay sports people.

However, once again, I have to reiterate, that it was you who started talking about proportions. I simply stated that there are few openly gay sports stars.

By that, I meant that 160 is not a large number, when you think of the number of professional sports starts worldwide.

Actually, here's a thought - do you think that 160 gay sportspeople is a lot or a few?

Also, so I can get an understanding of where you're coming from - what do you interpret as 'only a few'?

[jackthehat]

Jordyboy - Well, stop thinking about what you think they do........

I've watched in amusement as jomifl has tied himself into all sorts of knots on this.....

It is absolutely clear what sp1814 meant.....and he is absolutely correct.

How many 'currently competing' homosexuals/lesbians could anyone have named prior to the wiki-link being posted?

I think you'll find that the answer you come up with proves sp's point.

[sp1814]

JTH

Yep. Thanks...I was beginning to wonder whether my explanations weren't making sense. Glad to see that it's not just me who can see the obvious.