Crosswords5 mins ago
Can Anyone Possibly Agree With This Woman?
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Should the legal age of consent be lowered to 13, so as to fit in with her beliefs?
/// Ms Hewson, a barrister at Hardwicke chambers in London, described the crimes committed by disgraced broadcaster Stuart Hall as 'low level misdemeanours' which would not normally be prosecuted. ///
/// Ms Hewson is regularly ranked as a Leading Junior by The Legal 500 in the fields of public and administrative law, human rights and civil liberties, and professional discipline and regulatory law, according to her chambers’
website. ///
/// She has won cases in the European Court of Human Rights, the Supreme Court and High Court of the Republic of Ireland. ///
Should the legal age of consent be lowered to 13, so as to fit in with her beliefs?
/// Ms Hewson, a barrister at Hardwicke chambers in London, described the crimes committed by disgraced broadcaster Stuart Hall as 'low level misdemeanours' which would not normally be prosecuted. ///
/// Ms Hewson is regularly ranked as a Leading Junior by The Legal 500 in the fields of public and administrative law, human rights and civil liberties, and professional discipline and regulatory law, according to her chambers’
website. ///
/// She has won cases in the European Court of Human Rights, the Supreme Court and High Court of the Republic of Ireland. ///
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chrisgel - "Andy - So what you're saying is 'touching a 17-year-old’s breast, kissing a 13-year-old, or putting one’s hand up a 16-year-old’s skirt' is comparable to "cases such as the Ealing Vicarage rape or Fordingbridge gang rape and murders from 1986."
No, that's not what I am saying at all.
What I am saying is that crime is not like comparing prices between Tesco and Asda. because one crime appears to be more 'serious' than another does not in any way reduce the impact of the perceived 'less serious' crime, hence my Holocaust analogy.
The police absolutely should be treating these crimes in the same way - as they should treat all sexual abuse cases - fairly and justly, not on some peculiar perceived sliding scale of 'seriousness'.
In terms of a fair trial being jepardised - that is a separate issue, involving the ability of the press to name arrested but uncharged individuals - and that is a separate matter to be addressed, and has no relation to the points Ms Hewson is arguing - rather badly, in her article.
No wonder her Chambers have distanced themselves from her views - I wonder if they are looking into distancing themseves from Ms Hewson as well!!
No, that's not what I am saying at all.
What I am saying is that crime is not like comparing prices between Tesco and Asda. because one crime appears to be more 'serious' than another does not in any way reduce the impact of the perceived 'less serious' crime, hence my Holocaust analogy.
The police absolutely should be treating these crimes in the same way - as they should treat all sexual abuse cases - fairly and justly, not on some peculiar perceived sliding scale of 'seriousness'.
In terms of a fair trial being jepardised - that is a separate issue, involving the ability of the press to name arrested but uncharged individuals - and that is a separate matter to be addressed, and has no relation to the points Ms Hewson is arguing - rather badly, in her article.
No wonder her Chambers have distanced themselves from her views - I wonder if they are looking into distancing themseves from Ms Hewson as well!!
Why is everyone focussing on an underage young person being seduced by an older person? The age of consent affects all ages so two consenting 15 year olds are in effect breaking the law if they have sexual intercourse . I don't know if they would be prosecuted if found out, if they were what would it achieve? . A 15 year old having sex with his 13 year old girlfriend would be classed as rape even if the girl consented, and believe me some 13 year old girls are mature far beyond their years and quite capable of saying 'yes' or 'no' and meaning it. I personally think there should be a change in the Law to reflect changes in Society .
jackthehat
/// One would have to be daft not to realise that most newspapers will spin stories to fit the prejudices of it's readers. ///
If being concerned as regards individuals making inappropriate sexual advances towards under aged children is a prejudice, then that is one prejudice that I consider proud to hold.
/// I simply thought it might be an idea to discuss these comments/proposals based on what Barbara Hewson *actually* wrote. ///
The Daily Mail among most other papers were not concerned on copy printing the actual words of the person, only to remark on the insensitivity of what she put, reading her actual words does not make what she said any more acceptable.
/// One would have to be daft not to realise that most newspapers will spin stories to fit the prejudices of it's readers. ///
If being concerned as regards individuals making inappropriate sexual advances towards under aged children is a prejudice, then that is one prejudice that I consider proud to hold.
/// I simply thought it might be an idea to discuss these comments/proposals based on what Barbara Hewson *actually* wrote. ///
The Daily Mail among most other papers were not concerned on copy printing the actual words of the person, only to remark on the insensitivity of what she put, reading her actual words does not make what she said any more acceptable.
chrisgel
/// Please note that I am not referring to any particular case and of course I am in no way condoning any form of exploitation of children. ///
Well you seem to have covered your tracks with that last paragraph, but that does in no way clear you of the fact that you agree with what she said.
/// Please note that I am not referring to any particular case and of course I am in no way condoning any form of exploitation of children. ///
Well you seem to have covered your tracks with that last paragraph, but that does in no way clear you of the fact that you agree with what she said.
This barrister should be well aware of the reasons for the age of consent. It was originally brought in to stop pimps from prostituting children. If you allow the age of consent to drop to 13, the streets will be full of 13-year-old prostitutes, all controlled by older men, most of the girls being foreign and trafficked, and probably drugged to keep them under control.
IN this one the Daily Mail's snippets seem to reflect very well what Ms. Hewson was wanting to say. Other times, not so much: example being Hilary Mantel's "attack on Kate Middleton" that on closer inspection was more an attack on the media. In fairness, most papers did this and not just the DM.
Still it's in general surely a good thing to encourage going to the original source material on any story?
Still it's in general surely a good thing to encourage going to the original source material on any story?
jackthehat I was discussing the fact that not all underage sex has 'victims', that was my point! Two consenting 15 year olds that have been together for a year, whose parents are fully aware of their sexual relationship and provide birth control and advice (controversial I know) , these two young people are breaking the Law, there are no victims in this scenario are they? I would never dream of blaming a 14 year old that was having sex with a 30 year old man (she led me on scenario) that would be ridiculous, but what if the girl genuinely told the man she was 18? would any single man on here ask for ID or proof of age before dating a woman who looks 'Legal' ?
I should think there are very few 13-year-olds so far beyond their years as to engage in a sexual relationship without unfortunate consequences, but maybe I'm just yet to meet them.
By the way CPS guidelines discourage prosecution for cases of two young people having sex, if it is believed thatboth participants were willing:
http://
By the way CPS guidelines discourage prosecution for cases of two young people having sex, if it is believed thatboth participants were willing:
http://
Since I live partly here and partly in Germany I can comment on the differing age of consent laws both here and there. Here it's 16, we have one of the highest teenage pregnancy and STD statistics in Europe. In Germany the age of consent is 14 and they don't.
The main difference between German teenagers and UK teenagers seems to be not so much moral as motivational in that in Germany most teenage girls would genuinely consider it a disaster to get pregnant at 14 or 16, where as here it would not be viewed half as seriously. Most German teenagers are not promiscuous nor are they the victims of paedophiles, nor does Germany as a whole have the same hang ups about sex that we do here in the UK in that they have no desire to criminalise their children for having sex with other children. If you want my opinion on age of consent then 14 is ideal, however until teenagers in this country have more expected for them, have a sense of their own worth instilled in them, are required to be more self disciplined and given more responsibility I think we will continue to get the same issues with pregnancy and STDs.
Would I at 15 consider someone, ( anyone) trying to kiss me sexual assault ? No I would not, and I think Ms Hewson is seeking to point out that the bar that constitutes sexual assault is lowered every year and that at some point we do need to call a halt to that or we end up in a hell of no-one being able to interact with anyone else normally. Should sexual assault (that are actually sexual assaults) and rape be pursued regardless of age etc, then yes they certainly should, but she is right in the sense that it does no good to the victims to lump a man who has simply tried to kiss someone in with a child rapist.
The main difference between German teenagers and UK teenagers seems to be not so much moral as motivational in that in Germany most teenage girls would genuinely consider it a disaster to get pregnant at 14 or 16, where as here it would not be viewed half as seriously. Most German teenagers are not promiscuous nor are they the victims of paedophiles, nor does Germany as a whole have the same hang ups about sex that we do here in the UK in that they have no desire to criminalise their children for having sex with other children. If you want my opinion on age of consent then 14 is ideal, however until teenagers in this country have more expected for them, have a sense of their own worth instilled in them, are required to be more self disciplined and given more responsibility I think we will continue to get the same issues with pregnancy and STDs.
Would I at 15 consider someone, ( anyone) trying to kiss me sexual assault ? No I would not, and I think Ms Hewson is seeking to point out that the bar that constitutes sexual assault is lowered every year and that at some point we do need to call a halt to that or we end up in a hell of no-one being able to interact with anyone else normally. Should sexual assault (that are actually sexual assaults) and rape be pursued regardless of age etc, then yes they certainly should, but she is right in the sense that it does no good to the victims to lump a man who has simply tried to kiss someone in with a child rapist.
"Ms Hewson argues that 'touching a 17-year-old’s breast, kissing a 13-year-old, or putting one’s hand up a 16-year-old’s skirt' are not comparable to cases such as the Ealing Vicarage rape or Fordingbridge gang rape and murders from 1986."
That's true, and any sentence will take notice of the difference. But as Stuart Hall wasn't charged with gang rape and murder, it seems an odd comparison.
That's true, and any sentence will take notice of the difference. But as Stuart Hall wasn't charged with gang rape and murder, it seems an odd comparison.
AOG - Are you deliberately being mischievous? I did not say I agreed with her I said she made SOME valid points. It was precisely because I knew someone might infer my agreement that I included my final rider.
JTH - Your scenario of two 15 year-olds is hardly pertinent here, prosecutions are rarely, if ever, carried out under those circumstances.
This, in my view, is where the difficulty arises. Having a law based on a distinct and definite age is next to useless.
There are so many factors to take into account i.e. current social mores and how different they were at the time of the "offence", age differences etc.
In 1965 I was dating and having sex with my first girlfriend, I was 15 and she was a couple of months younger. So at the point of turning 16 was I committing a crime? Could she now go to the police and say I raped her?
JTH - Your scenario of two 15 year-olds is hardly pertinent here, prosecutions are rarely, if ever, carried out under those circumstances.
This, in my view, is where the difficulty arises. Having a law based on a distinct and definite age is next to useless.
There are so many factors to take into account i.e. current social mores and how different they were at the time of the "offence", age differences etc.
In 1965 I was dating and having sex with my first girlfriend, I was 15 and she was a couple of months younger. So at the point of turning 16 was I committing a crime? Could she now go to the police and say I raped her?
JTH - Yes but maybe I didn't make my point very well. How much older is acceptable?
I know that it's straying away from the OP, but I'm interested in this subject as a type of thought experiment.
For example, in our photograph albums we have pictures of my children from around 1973 - 1975 stark naked on the beach. In these pictures can be seen lot's of other toddlers also naked or nearly so. No-one batted an eye in those days.
Now if, for some reason, the police were to search my house. Could I be charged with possession of child pornography.
My point being that social mores change over time and today if we attend functions where there are children around I would absolutely refuse to take photographs and would ask my wife or daughter to do it instead.
How times change is a truism I think.
I know that it's straying away from the OP, but I'm interested in this subject as a type of thought experiment.
For example, in our photograph albums we have pictures of my children from around 1973 - 1975 stark naked on the beach. In these pictures can be seen lot's of other toddlers also naked or nearly so. No-one batted an eye in those days.
Now if, for some reason, the police were to search my house. Could I be charged with possession of child pornography.
My point being that social mores change over time and today if we attend functions where there are children around I would absolutely refuse to take photographs and would ask my wife or daughter to do it instead.
How times change is a truism I think.
chrisgel
That may be a British phenomenon
I have found German and Scandinavian beach users to be much more relaxed about nakedness in mixed groups of adults and children.
I have questioned fathers and mothers on beaches and riverbanks about their attitude to their naked children being around naked (non family) adults and they usually have no understanding of what i am alluding to; or if they do they see it as a 'British Phobia'.
That may be a British phenomenon
I have found German and Scandinavian beach users to be much more relaxed about nakedness in mixed groups of adults and children.
I have questioned fathers and mothers on beaches and riverbanks about their attitude to their naked children being around naked (non family) adults and they usually have no understanding of what i am alluding to; or if they do they see it as a 'British Phobia'.
Zeuhl is right, German beaches are really chilled out and relaxed and I have to make a conscious effort to remember the English are not the same when I come back here and spend time on the beach.I must say I really prefer it there, as no-one ever thinks about the huge paedophile mania that does seem pretty prevalent here.
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