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Hilsborough: What Do We Expect?
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Today, over 23 years after the worst sporting related disaster in British history, an 18 month report on all collated paperwork etc will be released to the families of deceased and the public.
Will it finally bring closure - or not? Obviously the dead can't be brought back, but does anyone believe that the full facts will be laid bare?
***N.B.*** NO FLIPPANT REPLIES, PLEASE ***
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Today, over 23 years after the worst sporting related disaster in British history, an 18 month report on all collated paperwork etc will be released to the families of deceased and the public.
Will it finally bring closure - or not? Obviously the dead can't be brought back, but does anyone believe that the full facts will be laid bare?
***N.B.*** NO FLIPPANT REPLIES, PLEASE ***
Answers
The truth would be nice and an acceptance from all sides that fault will most probably lie across the board as is the case in most accidents.
Seeking to blame one groups be it the Police or the fans is clearly wrong. Policing and some of the reasons for 'fans' being there were very different then.
Seeking to blame one groups be it the Police or the fans is clearly wrong. Policing and some of the reasons for 'fans' being there were very different then.
08:19 Wed 12th Sep 2012
I am fully prepared to accept that the hierarchy in charge of the Police operation that day were inept and incompetent, but can anyone here tell me what these 'alterations' being widely reported consisted of? I won't hold my breath.
But to suggest that we had large groups of Officers all whispering to each other and then writing statements and reports to the effect that they wanted to deliberately besmirch the names and reputations of the Liverpool fans has most definitely not been ratified and simply beggars belief.
These Officers all had families as well, so how on earth is it even remotely plausible? That is, unless you are one of the many warped individuals who would have us believe that "all Coppers ARE ba****ds"? It is just not credible.
I do believe that the Police were overwhelmed on the day, but that is far from them trying to 'stitch' anyone up. Besides, I saw the thing unfolding on BBC telly that very afternoon, and all I could see the Police doing was helping people, carrying people away, shepherding people this way and that and so on. So why would the Police try any kind of 'cover up' when almost everything was captured on TV anyway? It makes no sense, totally illogical.
Here's a point which I'd care to bet no one has even considered: the responsibility for policing football matches is normally that of the home club, in this case Sheffield Wednesday. However, as it was an FA Cup tie, that would have fallen to the FA themselves. So, did they cover all bases and eventualities in deciding on Police numbers on duty that day? There clearly were not enough, but has anyone ever questioned that? Not that I've ever heard of.
There is still a long way to go on this,and don't forget that no fewer than 400,000 documents were apparently studied over an 18 month period and so far - not unnaturally - only snippets are being revealed so far by the investigation panel (live on News channels now).
But to suggest that we had large groups of Officers all whispering to each other and then writing statements and reports to the effect that they wanted to deliberately besmirch the names and reputations of the Liverpool fans has most definitely not been ratified and simply beggars belief.
These Officers all had families as well, so how on earth is it even remotely plausible? That is, unless you are one of the many warped individuals who would have us believe that "all Coppers ARE ba****ds"? It is just not credible.
I do believe that the Police were overwhelmed on the day, but that is far from them trying to 'stitch' anyone up. Besides, I saw the thing unfolding on BBC telly that very afternoon, and all I could see the Police doing was helping people, carrying people away, shepherding people this way and that and so on. So why would the Police try any kind of 'cover up' when almost everything was captured on TV anyway? It makes no sense, totally illogical.
Here's a point which I'd care to bet no one has even considered: the responsibility for policing football matches is normally that of the home club, in this case Sheffield Wednesday. However, as it was an FA Cup tie, that would have fallen to the FA themselves. So, did they cover all bases and eventualities in deciding on Police numbers on duty that day? There clearly were not enough, but has anyone ever questioned that? Not that I've ever heard of.
There is still a long way to go on this,and don't forget that no fewer than 400,000 documents were apparently studied over an 18 month period and so far - not unnaturally - only snippets are being revealed so far by the investigation panel (live on News channels now).
These Officers all had families as well, so how on earth is it even remotely plausible? That is, unless you are one of the many warped individuals who would have us believe that "all Coppers ARE ba****ds"? It is just not credible.
All coppers are not bastards but some are..... and believe it or not other coppers will back up the bastards.
I was at Odsal stadium riot and was clubbed by a police officer for no other reason than I was at the Odsal stadium that day. I witnessed police hitting fans quite randomly. The fans that objected to be beaten and tried to defend themselves were beaten by even more police officers. Some arrested simply for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I was nowhere near the actual violence being dished out by the idiot segment of the Leeds united following and no one around me had anything to do with the fracas but small details like that did not bother the police.
MT
.... warped individual who believes that "some Coppers ARE ba****ds
All coppers are not bastards but some are..... and believe it or not other coppers will back up the bastards.
I was at Odsal stadium riot and was clubbed by a police officer for no other reason than I was at the Odsal stadium that day. I witnessed police hitting fans quite randomly. The fans that objected to be beaten and tried to defend themselves were beaten by even more police officers. Some arrested simply for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I was nowhere near the actual violence being dished out by the idiot segment of the Leeds united following and no one around me had anything to do with the fracas but small details like that did not bother the police.
MT
.... warped individual who believes that "some Coppers ARE ba****ds
This is a catalogue of errors:
Liverpool fans were given the 'wrong end' at the ground, they should have been allocated the larger terraced end.
Liverpool fans without tickets turned up.
The police did not have the 'tools' to control the situation
Duckenfield made a fateful decision to open the gates
Fences prevented fans from getting over the wall onto the pitch to alleviate the crush.
Insufficient emergency services were on hand
The police for some reason decided to cover up their mis-doings and blame everything and everyone else
Some elements of the press jumped to the wrong conclusions and let rip with both barrels.
The cover up by the local police made the situation much much worse. Duckenfield is dead now I believe and I would think most if not all the senior police involved would have retired by now.
Thankfully stadia, crowd control, paramedic attendance and football fan behaviour has improved a thousand fold since this tragedy (and others such as Bradford) so hopefully it can never happen again.
If the families are helped by the release of these documents all well and good but in my opinion it is time to let the victims rest in peace, give the families the support they require (which Liverpool FC have done admirably over the years - I am not a Liverpool fan) and for the rest to remember, respect and move on.
Liverpool fans were given the 'wrong end' at the ground, they should have been allocated the larger terraced end.
Liverpool fans without tickets turned up.
The police did not have the 'tools' to control the situation
Duckenfield made a fateful decision to open the gates
Fences prevented fans from getting over the wall onto the pitch to alleviate the crush.
Insufficient emergency services were on hand
The police for some reason decided to cover up their mis-doings and blame everything and everyone else
Some elements of the press jumped to the wrong conclusions and let rip with both barrels.
The cover up by the local police made the situation much much worse. Duckenfield is dead now I believe and I would think most if not all the senior police involved would have retired by now.
Thankfully stadia, crowd control, paramedic attendance and football fan behaviour has improved a thousand fold since this tragedy (and others such as Bradford) so hopefully it can never happen again.
If the families are helped by the release of these documents all well and good but in my opinion it is time to let the victims rest in peace, give the families the support they require (which Liverpool FC have done admirably over the years - I am not a Liverpool fan) and for the rest to remember, respect and move on.
-- answer removed --
Mick-Talbot,
I don't know what your anecdotal account of alleged Police brutality has to do with the Hillsborough disaster? I don't remember anyone being beaten up by the Police who were far too busy helping victims and other injured people.
I vividly remember sitting in front of the telly that afternoon and seeing God knows how many people literally trapped within pens which were none of the Police's doing, but I did see many being helped over by Police, fellow fans and anyone else who could offer any assistance.
Failure at the highest level of the Police I can accept, but the ordinary Coppers on duty that day did their level best to help as many as possible - and funnily enough it did not result in anyone being beaten to a pulp - gosh, what a shock!
I don't know what your anecdotal account of alleged Police brutality has to do with the Hillsborough disaster? I don't remember anyone being beaten up by the Police who were far too busy helping victims and other injured people.
I vividly remember sitting in front of the telly that afternoon and seeing God knows how many people literally trapped within pens which were none of the Police's doing, but I did see many being helped over by Police, fellow fans and anyone else who could offer any assistance.
Failure at the highest level of the Police I can accept, but the ordinary Coppers on duty that day did their level best to help as many as possible - and funnily enough it did not result in anyone being beaten to a pulp - gosh, what a shock!
Some elements of the press jumped to the wrong conclusions and let rip with both barrels.
They didn't jump to the wrong conclusions, they were given misleading information by the police and printed it as "the truth", which it wasn't. I haven't seen anything in coverage of the report that suggests it blames the press.
Why would the police try to cover things up? To hide their failures. It worked (in part) for 25 years.
They didn't jump to the wrong conclusions, they were given misleading information by the police and printed it as "the truth", which it wasn't. I haven't seen anything in coverage of the report that suggests it blames the press.
Why would the police try to cover things up? To hide their failures. It worked (in part) for 25 years.
JNO - the press reacted immediately to the situation, the next day in fact, before anyone had an inkling as to what actually went on. And as for the cover up working, I think most people realised that the police (I refer to the senior officers, not the many who tried to help the situation and probably averted a greater disaster) were covering up to some extent very early in the proceedings which is why there's been a clamour for many many years to release the documents
If you listened to Cameron and all the other self righteous 'Honourable Members' pontificating about Hillsborough it would be very easy to think that all of them were as pure as the driven slush?
I do not remember such vociferous condemnation 3 years ago during the episode that was the expenses scandal? Yes, no one died, but for such a heavily tainted assembly to now close ranks in downright condemnation of one of the agencies involved.
There have been no specifics revealed whatsoever yet here we have an elected body of MPs who have already decided where the guilt lies despite the fact that the 'accused' haven't even been tried yet let alone convicted.
I look forward to the full weight of evidence being disclosed.
I do not remember such vociferous condemnation 3 years ago during the episode that was the expenses scandal? Yes, no one died, but for such a heavily tainted assembly to now close ranks in downright condemnation of one of the agencies involved.
There have been no specifics revealed whatsoever yet here we have an elected body of MPs who have already decided where the guilt lies despite the fact that the 'accused' haven't even been tried yet let alone convicted.
I look forward to the full weight of evidence being disclosed.
Zeuhl,
Those words mean nothing without the verbatim, don't you understand that? What you have quoted is a sweeping generalisation, not factual evidence. For example, what WAS the wording that was allegedly removed - AND replaced instead by WHAT?
If you know, please tell. If not, then all you are doing is repeating hearsay. Everyone, especially those being accused, need to know exactly and specifically what the evidence is and why they are being accused. That is a basic requirement for any defendant in any court of law in the UK. Without specific evidence/proof of an alleged offence, no one can be convicted. Fact.
Those words mean nothing without the verbatim, don't you understand that? What you have quoted is a sweeping generalisation, not factual evidence. For example, what WAS the wording that was allegedly removed - AND replaced instead by WHAT?
If you know, please tell. If not, then all you are doing is repeating hearsay. Everyone, especially those being accused, need to know exactly and specifically what the evidence is and why they are being accused. That is a basic requirement for any defendant in any court of law in the UK. Without specific evidence/proof of an alleged offence, no one can be convicted. Fact.
<an elected body of MPs who have already decided where the guilt lies>
not really, no.
an independent review board has decided 'where the guilt lies' having scrutinised the evidence.
the MPs are using that review's official findings.
surely, in the light of those findings, any other response would be perverse.
i'm not clear what bearing the expenses scandal has on anyone's understanding of the formal review's findings.
not really, no.
an independent review board has decided 'where the guilt lies' having scrutinised the evidence.
the MPs are using that review's official findings.
surely, in the light of those findings, any other response would be perverse.
i'm not clear what bearing the expenses scandal has on anyone's understanding of the formal review's findings.
-- answer removed --
<Those words mean nothing without the verbatim, don't you understand that? >
that's simply not true. a judge will 'generalise' or summarise a court case based on the 'factual evidence' - would you dismiss all of them unless you'd seen all of the evidence?
in this case, the 'generalisations' as you call them are being made by the official enquiry. their full report includes detail on the 'factual evidence' for anyone who wants to look at it.
Fill yer boots.
that's simply not true. a judge will 'generalise' or summarise a court case based on the 'factual evidence' - would you dismiss all of them unless you'd seen all of the evidence?
in this case, the 'generalisations' as you call them are being made by the official enquiry. their full report includes detail on the 'factual evidence' for anyone who wants to look at it.
Fill yer boots.
No one was 100% to blame
The police made a split second decision to open a gate to avoid people being crushed to death outside the ground, which ultimately resulted in others being crushed to death inside the ground
Fans urgency to get into the ground, the decision to open the gate, insufficient stewarding inside the ground, the fact that security fencing surrounded our grounds at that time, and police incompetance were all major factors
The police made a split second decision to open a gate to avoid people being crushed to death outside the ground, which ultimately resulted in others being crushed to death inside the ground
Fans urgency to get into the ground, the decision to open the gate, insufficient stewarding inside the ground, the fact that security fencing surrounded our grounds at that time, and police incompetance were all major factors
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