Female circumcision.

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.dailymail....llegally-Britain.html

With as many as 100,000 women who have undergone this brutal genital mutilation illegally in Britain, why are the police failing to act against this barbaric practice?

/// The Metropolitan Police said since 2008, it had received 166 reports of people who fear they are at risk of FGM but it has failed to bring forward a single perpetrator. ///

/// It is the same for all 43 forces across England and Wales with no convictions for the offence ever taking place.///

[pdust]

*those Muslims who advocate this disgusting procedure, a ‘cultural’ practice it is not.*

there are times when its cultural.

ok its going to be hard to word this so please nobody think for one minute im condoning it... im just saying as ive been told

FGM is still practised in my husbands home country, i think its trying to be made illegal and i think nowadays its mainly done in villages although it does take place in the cities but seems to be dying out there thankfully. As far as ive been told most people are against it nowadays.

I have had this described to me by family members and it was beyond shocking .. ive only been explained the 'procedure' not the pain or anything, for which im eternally grateful. Thankfully none of them were disfigured to the extent I have heard/read about but its bad enough. They mainly have the clitoral hood removed though some had a thin slice taken from their clitoris. Everyone i have spoken to said it was a stupid cultural thing. They do it because they believe that letting blood from that area lets out badness and stops the woman straying, if it bleeds enough removing the skin theres not always further cutting done... these were all women round my age or older. None of the younger women i know have had to go through this thankfully.

*Um Atiyyat al-Ansariyyah said: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (pbuh) said to her: Do not cut too severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband. *

that is not saying female circumcision is obligatory to the religion though naomi .... to me it is The Prophet (saw) telling a woman who is carrying out a generations old procedure to be careful so the woman can still enjoy sex and it doesnt look completely disfigured. Horrible as it sounds that had to be way better at the time than full genital mutilation.

just so the usual suspects know... im not staying around to discuss anything... ive given an opinion and related what ive had told to me from women who have had this done...neither will change

[pdust]

sorry i missed a bit out.... i know of 2 people who say it should be done and they are both old men. And even though they agree with it they say the way it is done in places where full FGM is carried out that that is wrong and more or less say it should be done the way i described up there.

i actually think these are the horriblest posts i have ever made on here.....

[naomi24]

Pixi, No one has suggested it is obligatory – we know it isn’t. However, those Muslims who do support it, such as Sheikh Yussef al-Badri and his cronies, whom I mentioned in the thread I posted a link to, do believe it’s obligatory and they justify it through their religious literature.

//Sheikh Yussef al-Badri, who together with a group of Islamic fundamentalists, doctors and lawyers, brought a lawsuit before the Egyptian court arguing that the state could not forbid female circumcision because it is required under Islamic law. The Sheikh told the council that he had found three new 'hadiths' (acts and words ascribed to the prophet Muhammad) proving that he [Mohammed] had authorised female circumcision.//

That ^^ cannot in any way be construed as either simply cultural or traditional. Those men believe that, under Islamic law, it is a religious requirement. There is no defence.

[pdust]

*Pixi, No one has suggested it is obligatory – we know it isn’t.*

ok i know i said i wouldnt be back but i came back to say sorry, i read all through (thats a lot for my concentration level) and i thought it was being said that 'it was' rather than 'certain people though so'

I obviously dont know everything but the Hadith from earlier and something ive read about Ghusl are the only times i can remember having seen female circumcision mentioned..... that particular one said '....if the circumcised parts touch then Ghusl is necessary' or something similar..... i would be interested to see the '3 new Hadith' the Sheikh mentioned..... you dont happen to know if theres links to them anywhere do you? thats not sarcasm honest, i just thought that the majority of Hadith had been authenticated donkeys years ago

[pdust]

authenticated or not as may be the case, as there are a lot which are disregarded

[jomifl]

It seems that if the koranic texts and the bible are searched thoroughly enough it is possible to find writings that can be used to justify anything. Islam does not seem to have a leadership or college that all muslims obey which is able to pronounce on and / reprehensible practises. That is one of the reasons why FGM continues.

[emmie]

pdust, just reading that about parts of the clitoris being removed has me reaching for the sick bucket. Heaven almighty, this barbaric practice should be outlawed in every country, it may be illegal here, but that obviously hasn't stopped it form happening.

[pdust]

em believe me its one of the worst things ive ever had explained to me..... made even more so that a couple of them put their thumb nail on their little finger pad and indicated how much was removed.... it was accompanied by a shrug as if to say whats the fuss? i have been laughed at for my reaction to it.... i admit it was a tiny tiny bit (just enough to produce blood) but i think i was beyond the sick bucket, it makes me curl up in a tight ball shuddering when i hear of it.....

[naomi24]

Pixi, no, sorry, I don’t know. As for authentication, these were influential people, lawyers and doctors amongst them, so if what they were relying upon wasn’t authenticated, it would appear that the authentication you speak of doesn’t mean a lot to some Muslims – and that’s not sarcasm either.

Jom, that's exactly right – see above - but strangely enough the one place you won't find mention of circumcision is in the Koran which states "Let there be no change in Allah's creation". Nevertheless, bits are lopped off boys as a matter of routine (and in some cases off girls too) so in effect Allah’s words are overridden by those of Mohammed.

[emmie]

pdust, i have read enough over the last few years about female circumcision, and the effects on women who have had it done, and barbaric doesn't come anywhere close to explain this vile and totally unnecessary practice. I am aware also that there are variants on female circumcision, but the more i read over time, the more i have to realise how truly awful it must be to be left in agony.

[naomi24]

Variants shouldn't be a consideration. It is barbaric, it is sickening, and it is unacceptable - full stop.

[pdust]

thanks naomi... i think i will ask about and see if i can find anything out about it....

*Variants shouldn't be a consideration. It is barbaric, it is sickening, and it is unacceptable - full stop*

for once i am in complete agreement with you

[naomi24]

Pixi, do please let me know if you find anything. I'd be very interested to see the basis for their case.

[pdust]

yeah course i will :)

[emmie]

by variants i obviously meant that there are different types of circumcision, of course i believe all forms should be banned, and the practitioners be struck off if they are doctors, and banned from ever practising medicine again. But how to catch them if no one says anything?

[naomi24]

Thanks Pixi.

Em, I knew exactly what you meant. I was just agreeing with you.

[birdie1971]

Keyplus - “... female circumcision has nothing to do with religion... But Naomi.... believes that it is in Islamic literature... I would love to see first of all that what she calls Islamic literature and then if she could point it out so that it may increase my knowledge...” [11:14 Mon 23rd Apr 2012]

I hope you have had the chance to read Naomi's rebuttal of your rather pompous post and that you now find that the sum total of your knowledge about Islam has been suitably increased as per your request.

[keyplus90]

Nomi – Your “innocence” makes me laugh. Your Islamic literature is another thread where you have said almost same kind of baseless things and then few words from someone called Um Atiyyat Al-alsariyyah. I can’t remember someone at the time of prophet with that name but I might be wrong. But I did say before that anything about Islamic authority from Quran or Hadith need to have a reference so that someone can check it. Without that it’s as follows.

///Naomi said: A woman used to perform circumcision in London. Birdie said to her: Do not cut too severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.////

Can you see the difference? If not then consider one thing. Male circumcision is very clearly according to Islamic teachings and you would hardly find anyone male Muslim that has not been circumcised, and on the other hand women are not even a fraction of the total number of Muslims. So why Muslims are acting upon it almost 100% when it comes to males and not even 5% when females are involved? That means a large number of them are not acting upon their religion then.
But trust me you need common sense to think like that and I know few people lack that.

Birdie – well, same as usual. So has been ignored.

[emmie]

no woman should be circumcised, it's bloody barbaric. I don't agree with male circumcision either by the way.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, Here’s the reference you want.

Sunan Abu Dawud Book 41, Number 5251

Circumcision, male or female, is not in mentioned in the Koran, and it is not accordance with the teachings of Allah who specifically forbids alteration to his creation. It is in accordance with the teachings of Mohammed.

And stop telling me to trust you. I’ve told you before. I’d rather trust a killer shark.