What would Lord Robert Baden-Powell have said?

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.telegraph....w-to-secularists.html

So it looks like the Girl Guides are set to drop their oath to God, just because two families have objected to the oath.

/// Caroline Mason said her daughter had felt unable to take part in her Brownies enrolment in north Somerset due to the religious content of the Promise.///

/// A second complaint came from Juliette and Barry Willett, who said their daughter Maddie had been excluded from a ceremony in Crawley Down, West Sussex. ///

/// "She's incredibly upset at the idea that she can't be a fully fledged Brownie," said Mrs Willett. ///

Perhaps these two girls should not have joined a movement founded on true Christian beliefs?

[naomi24]

AOG, I read the article. The people complained, and the organisation have taken that complaint on board and are considering it. Quite right. Perhaps it hadn't occurred to them before.

[naomi24]

Actually, I'll re-word that. Perhaps it hadn't occurred to them before that the rules were creating a problem for some people.

[craft1948]

Naomi but if the Scouts is founded on certain religious beliefs (rightly or wrongly) why should they change?
One of the best schools in my area was founded by the Roman Catholic Church, I would have loved my daughter to get a place there as their academic record was brilliant, as a non-catholic I accepted that she wasn't eligible.

[naomi24]

Craft, they're under no obligation to change - but personally I think children are far more important than religion, and therefore should be the prime consideration for any youth organisation.

[anotheoldgit]

Neither would she be, in Muslim schools.

If a person doesn't wish to join an organisation because of it's particular religious attachment, then they don't have to join.

It's like saying "I want to join an atheist organisation, but I first want them to change their rules so as to accommodate my religious beliefs".

[jno]

craft, I don't think Scouts and Guides were founded as primarily religious organisations; but Christianity was the default option in those days (and in the country where they were founded), so it was included. If they now decide it isn't that important to their mission statement, they're free to change. Just like Nokia is no longer a pulp mill.

[jno]

aog: likewise if the Guides don't want non-Christians to join, they are also free not to change their rules.

But evidently they do.

PS I left some instructions about ad blocks on your other thread.

[naomi24]

AOG, //It's like saying "I want to join an atheist organisation, but I first want them to change their rules so as to accommodate my religious beliefs". //

No, it's not like that at all. We're talking about adults excluding children from certain activities based purely upon their own religious bias. jno is right. When these organisations began, society's default position was Christianity. That no longer applies.

[Buenchico]

The Scout and Guide movements have always declared themselves as open to all religions but they've only recently come to realise that they were actually discriminating against atheists. I was a Cub Scout Leader for several years but I resigned specifically because, as an atheist, I objected to the reference to a non-existent god in the oath.

Chris

[anotheoldgit]

I wonder how many of these atheist parents would make their Boy Scouts, Girl Guides, Brownies or Beaver Scouts, withdraw from the Scout movement's annual St George's Church Parade?

[jno]

well, one thing parents often do is recognise their children's right to be different. Carnivorous parents may allow their offspring to be vegetarians, and atheist parents may allow their children to attend religious ceremonies, if that's the child's wish. (Or they may refuse, depending on how fervent the parents' beliefs are.)

[naomi24]

//I wonder how many of these atheist parents would make their Boy Scouts, Girl Guides, Brownies or Beaver Scouts, withdraw from the Scout movement's annual St George's Church Parade? //

Maybe we should conduct a survey.

[bednobs]

craft you say "So you think the association should change their rules to include a minority, rather than cater to the majority?"
i would cast doubt on your claim that the majority of scouts, cubs and guides have a religion

[craft1948]

So they're all lying when they take the Boy Scout Promise are they?

[cathfromsaron]

all religions *are* welcomed ... this case is about atheism surely? x

[bednobs]

yes, of course they are!
I was a brownie, guide and ranger and lied on each promise (although i probably didn't see it as lying at the time - i saw doing my duty to god about as likely to happen as my serving the queen). I certainly didn't do my "best" in all situations either. Luckily as i don't believe in god, i didn't think i would get divine retribution for lying. Still waiting for the queen to come round and ask me to serve her too!

[naomi24]

Cath, quite right.

[Brenden]

I think the bottom line is that these parents are inflicting their own beliefs onto their children from the cradle.

[naomi24]

Brenden, isn't that precisely what religious parents do? In my experience, you'll find little mention of religion or of atheism in a home where religion is not a consideration.

[Brenden]

But surely that would not stop you allowing your child to join i.e the guides and take the oath, or go to church or whatever if they wanted, even if it is not your belief - I cannot for the life of me understand the mentality of these two women using their children to make a point.