Backside Syndrome

[modeller]

In Haiti the relief agencies say they have the materials to build several thousand homes but the land is covered with loose rubble . A few people have manually removed enough rubble to build themselves a home but 18 thousand people are sitting on their backsides in a tented camp waiting for someone else to do it. Good grief if only a quarter of them removed a few bricks each day they could make big inroads into that rubble. Manpower alone can work wonders. We don't require bulldozers to remove loose rubble just muscle and the will.
Haiti is not alone in this Backside Syndrome, I remember driving through New York and saw the difference between the different ethnic areas . Same street , same type of houses but a vast difference in the amount of rubbish left lying around.
Of course it's not PC to say so but you can see it in our own country Just go to some of our sink estates , people complain but do nothing about the situation.

[sp1814]

modeller

It's not so much that it's not 'PC' - just naive. Perhaps you should have a look at some pictures from Haiti and describe how people without machinery are going to move and dispose of (say) a ruined hospital, prison, main roads, when their transport infrastructure has all but collapsed?

[modeller]

sp1814 Oh come on it's over a year and only 5% of the rubble has been cleared and $7 billion has been paid out in aid . They could rebuild every road in the country for less. We are not even talking about massive machines most ot the damage was to poorly built houses that could be largely cleared by manpower and they have plenty of that. At the present rate of clearance it will take another 20 years . Will you still be trotting out the same excuse ? I expect you will .
There are many reports but here's one from Bill Clinton he is not wearing your rose tinted glasses and neither is he avoiding the difficulties.
http://www.dailymail....happened-7bn-aid.html

[IggyB]

The article you have linked to said "The international community pledged some £7bn of aid over the next ten years in the wake of the disaster but most of that money is still to arrive" - so it hasn't been paid out yet, when it has maybe things will improve.

Your idea seems nice and simple - but I do wonder how they could clear the rubble in reality, where would they put it - how would they transport it etc.

I don't think your comment about the cleanliness of areas around the world being determined by the ethnic origin of the inhabitants seems very likely - i would suggest that poverty could have an affect in this respect irrespective of genetic background

[bednobs]

perhaps peoples minds and time are occupied by how they are going to feed themselves and their families

[thedodge]

Taken from your link
> Experts estimate that there is still enough rubble to fill trucks parked bumper to bumper halfway around the world.<

You would need a lot of hands to shift that

[modeller]

You are missing the point they have a massive amount of manpower and it is not being used .
I saw far worse devastation in Germany after the war and thousands of women as well as men were moving it by hand . I saw Hannover virtually rebuilt in 10 months and the rubble was as high as a double decker bus . Similarly in Hamburg . They had nothing but the determination to rebuild their country . Where there is the will there is the way . An old saying but true and its that lack of will which is lacking in many societies.
My comment about NY also had nothing to do with poverty. Same street , same houses , same cars , same clothes , same shops........The diffference was ethnic composition .
T

[sp1814]

Modeller

So are you saying that the Haitians are lazy blacks? Is that the core of your post? If so - why not simply post this:

"Black people are lazy and dirty".

It would save confusion!

[modeller]

I was waiting for that stupid remark from you . Thats how you avoid facing reality in most of your posts. I never mentioned the ethnicticity of the areas in NY , in fact they were not black . Sorry to disappoint you . In fact some of the worse areas were very white .
A bit like some of our sink estates.
You prefer to ignore the situation on the ground in Haiti , which is that one year later little has been done despite dozens of agencies and billions being made available in aid . I contrasted that single earthquake on a small island with the entire destruction of a country and where human labour was used to rebuild it .
If you want to see what human labour can do see this link :
. http://gentlecynic.ne...20WW2%20rubble%20.pdf
I know you won't want to .

[sp1814]

modeller

What on earth is the point of this question?

Seriously.

Also;

"I remember driving through New York and saw the difference between the different ethnic areas"

and:

"I never mentioned the ethnicticity of the areas in NY , in fact they were not black"

So are you talking about Hispanics? Jews?

Sounds an odd thing to say. Are you lumping everyone together based on race, location, economic output?

Your viewpoint really does sounds a little simplistic. I say that because of this:

"Good grief if only a quarter of them removed a few bricks each day they could make big inroads into that rubble"

My guess is that you probably don't know much about the challenges facing the international aid effort.

Or do you?

I certainly don't which is why I would try to avoid making such sweeping statements.

It comes across as slightly arrogant, and I'm sure that's not the impression you want to give.

[modeller]

sp Like you I can only go by the media . I have however experienced the rebuilding of destroyed
buildings and infrastructure and I did notice the different attitudes between societies and cultures. If you drive through any large city you must have seen the differences I described. It is a cultural thing not colour. I could take you to a country where they are all the same colour but half live in squalor and the others are like most of us. The two groups live within 100 metres of each other in similar homes and life styles.
It is because I feel the Haitians are not helping themselves that I criticise them .

[birdie1971]

Sp1814 - You seem obsessed with trying to put a 'racial' spin on everything. When Modeller mentioned different areas of New York having different levels of street cleanliness, your immediate reaction was to suggest that he was criticising Jews or Hispanics. That seems to me to be an odd conclusion to leap to given the generality of his remarks.

With regards to the Haitians, Modeller is commenting on an apparent lack of will amongst the indigenous population to help themselves. I have no idea whether this is true or not. But it's quite a leap of logic to conclude that Modeller's comments are racist. This may come as a shock to you Sp1814, but it is possible to criticise a person or a whole group of people who are non-white without that criticism being borne out of a racist ideology.

[cassa333]

I do tend to agree with Modeller on this one.

There are obviously difficulties with aid getting to the place it is needed and the scale must be daunting on both a national and individual level and day to day servival must take up a lot of your time BUT if I were there I would be clearing a nice space for my children.

As said a few bricks at a time. A shanty town to start with and then with the proper aid (that hasn't been stolen by corrupt officials and who knows who) proper buildings.

I'm not saying it would be easy because it wouldn't. But it is doable.

[salspotters]

modeller
===I remember driving through New York and saw the difference between the different ethnic areas ===



Adjective ethnic (comparative more ethnic, superlative most ethnic)

Of or related to a group of people having common racial, national, religious or cultural origins.
There are many ethnic Indonesians in the Netherlands
Belonging to a foreign culture.
I like to eat ethnic food
(historical) heathen, not Judeo-Christian


Birdie it is Modeller who first posted about ethnic groups

[sp1814]

Birdie

Please see salspotter's posting for clarification.

I didn't put a racial spin on this. It's in the question!!!

[modeller]

sp It was you who brought in Ethnic Colour . Haven't you heard of Ethnic Russians, Germans, Armenians , Albanians , Croatians , Serbians etc ? All white but all culturably different and that is the crux of the matter.
Travel around what used to be Jugoslavia and you will see how all the ethnic
groups reacted to the devastation of war. Some are still Backsiding and waiting to bailed
out whilst others have got on with the job and have rebuilt their lives and homes. What is more they started immediately after the disaster.
If you read the reports on Haiti thousands have been told they can go home but choose not to do so because life is better for them in the refugee camps. That may be true but it is an example of their lack of drive to rebuild their lives and their country.

[sp1814]

Which ethnic groups were you referring to in New York? And if you ARE referring to ethnic whites - how could you establish which ethnic groups they belonged to by sight alone???

[sp1814]

Also - isn't it rare to have different ethnic subgroups living on the same street in New York? I myself have only been to Manhattan, but from what I know of Queens and the Bronx, it's quite rare for the different groups to live the same streets.

[modeller]

I thinked you have flogged this subject to death sp . Even your rose tinted spectacles would enable you to see if you were in Soho. even if your brain didn't want to accept it.

[jackthehat]

Ah well, with Baby Doc Duvalier back in the country, I think we can expect to see the international aid monies arriving faster.............it'll probably end up in the Cayman Islands a lot more quickly, too.

[birdie1971]

Sp1814 - “So are you talking about Hispanics? Jews?”... “I didn't put a racial spin on this. It's in the question!!!”... “Which ethnic groups were you referring to in New York? And if you ARE referring to ethnic whites - how could you establish which ethnic groups they belonged to by sight alone???”

Race was NOT 'in the question'. You inferred that it was and continued as though you were correct in that assumption.

You suggest that Modeller determined which ethnic groups were living in specific areas of New York by 'sight alone'. Why have you leapt to that conclusion? There are areas of New York, as you rightly point out, that are inhabited almost exclusively by certain ethnic minorities – and these areas are well known. If I find myself in Greenpoint or Williamsburg, even if I don't see a single soul, I know that I'm in 'Little Poland'. If I find myself in Brooklyn in the Brighton Beach area, I know that I'm in an area populated largely by Ukrainians, etc.