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Can Employers Insist On Paying For Certain Days Annual Leave.
Just a curiosity really?
I work 4 or more days a week every week, I then book AL. for 3 weeks. my employes are saying that I will be paid for the full 21 days and those 21 days will be deducted from my holiday entitlement, even though only 12 of those days were actually working days.
can they legally do that?
In our contract it only mentions the amount of AL we are entitled to and how much notice we must give etc.
I work 4 or more days a week every week, I then book AL. for 3 weeks. my employes are saying that I will be paid for the full 21 days and those 21 days will be deducted from my holiday entitlement, even though only 12 of those days were actually working days.
can they legally do that?
In our contract it only mentions the amount of AL we are entitled to and how much notice we must give etc.
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I'm not a HR specialist and have left this until now hoping that a specialist would come along. I do know my way around lots of the HR legislation so, given no specialist has come along, I'll add my opinion.
If you were working those three weeks then your employer would not be paying you for the full 21 days. In offering to pay you for them as holiday, your employer is saying that, given you want 12 of those 21 days off, they are going to exercise their right to demand you take the other 9 too. I guess from their point of view that the reason they'd do this is because you're not available for work during those days. I believe they're probably entitled to do this.
From your point of view it's a big problem as it means you are going to use a large part of your annual entitlement for one holiday. You'd obviously just like to use 12 days and, in most normal employment (such as I have experience of) that's how it would work. But in your sector (which I have no experience of) things may be a little different.
If you were working those three weeks then your employer would not be paying you for the full 21 days. In offering to pay you for them as holiday, your employer is saying that, given you want 12 of those 21 days off, they are going to exercise their right to demand you take the other 9 too. I guess from their point of view that the reason they'd do this is because you're not available for work during those days. I believe they're probably entitled to do this.
From your point of view it's a big problem as it means you are going to use a large part of your annual entitlement for one holiday. You'd obviously just like to use 12 days and, in most normal employment (such as I have experience of) that's how it would work. But in your sector (which I have no experience of) things may be a little different.
Tambo- I can't see any mention of this service on here
http://
If they do also offer advice on a wide range of employment law matters it's no wonder they are slow at processing tax queries
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If they do also offer advice on a wide range of employment law matters it's no wonder they are slow at processing tax queries
Thanks Ellipsis, you may be right.
Personally I dont have a problem with it, generally I am told when to take holidays as I never book them until I am told to, I enjoy my work, so days off don't really bother me a lot. I am currently working a 3 weeks stretch without a day off. I will however have the following 3 weeks off to look after my good lady Carakeel after her operation on Tuesday.
I do like to know where I stand legally for future reference.
Personally I dont have a problem with it, generally I am told when to take holidays as I never book them until I am told to, I enjoy my work, so days off don't really bother me a lot. I am currently working a 3 weeks stretch without a day off. I will however have the following 3 weeks off to look after my good lady Carakeel after her operation on Tuesday.
I do like to know where I stand legally for future reference.
> No FF, they dont pay extra as it is deducted from our holiday entitlement. so if they pay 21 days instead of 15 that is because they are counting all those days as holiday.
No, they're not allowed to do that. They can't take holiday entitlement out of days that they're not paying you for - but they CAN take it out of days that they ARE paying you for, which is my interpretation of what they're trying to do.
The best way to look at this is with a practical example.
You work 4 days per week, so 4x52=208 days per year.
Your holiday entitlement is 28x4/5=22.4 days per year, probably rounded up to 22.5 days per year
Therefore, assuming no time off sick and no overtime, the number of days on which you would present yourself for work in order to receive your full salary should be 208-22.5=185.5 days.
If you work more days than that then you're possibly entitled to more pay. It depends on your contract and on the circumstances in which you work more.
No, they're not allowed to do that. They can't take holiday entitlement out of days that they're not paying you for - but they CAN take it out of days that they ARE paying you for, which is my interpretation of what they're trying to do.
The best way to look at this is with a practical example.
You work 4 days per week, so 4x52=208 days per year.
Your holiday entitlement is 28x4/5=22.4 days per year, probably rounded up to 22.5 days per year
Therefore, assuming no time off sick and no overtime, the number of days on which you would present yourself for work in order to receive your full salary should be 208-22.5=185.5 days.
If you work more days than that then you're possibly entitled to more pay. It depends on your contract and on the circumstances in which you work more.
If you are working //4 or more days a week// then you are working variable hours and entitled to holiday pay on all of those hours, not just basic.
I'm agreeing with you Ratter about the days off, but also pointing out the additional AL entitlement based on the times when you are called in; unless of course you are given time off in lieu for those days. Its the law and covered by the working time directive.
I'm agreeing with you Ratter about the days off, but also pointing out the additional AL entitlement based on the times when you are called in; unless of course you are given time off in lieu for those days. Its the law and covered by the working time directive.
A number of people above have struggled to understand the logic of your employer's actions. I am very sure your employer is incorrect in its interpretation.
Not sure if I count here as an expert, but I probably have more direct experience working with HR then many people here.
We seem to have established that you work days of equal length. Had you not, the ONLY correct way to calculate holiday is in hours. That does not need to apply here.
People on zero hours contracts have no guarantee of work on a particular day. Nor indeed does the employer have a right to demand work on a specified day. That does not apply here.
You seem to have a contract that specifies a number of days work per year or per month (which is it), but with local agreement as to when you will work these days. Can we confirm this is right, and how far in advance this is fixed.
If one works a five day week, that is 260 days per year. The minimum holiday entitlement is 28 days, so employee works 232 days. I suggest you work out how many working days you work. Or tell us here and we can work it out.
That is the physical number of days you need to attend, and the employer cannot have it both ways by turning around late in the day and say, I want you to work the after next, you say, but I wanted holiday, so the employer says, that counts as your holiday then, pal.
He could refuse you that as time off (though it could be pretty unreasonable) BUT YOUR HOLIDAY IS NOT LOST. It is there for another time. Back to my original assertion that you should work out how many days per year you are contracted to work.
The way payroll are trying to calculate this currently is ridiculous and wrong.
At the end of the holiday year, if you have not had all your holiday shifts, you and your employer could agree to transfer some shifts into the next year, or to pay you for some unused ones, but there are EU WTD regulations compelling employers to ensure employees get at least 20 shifts/days off (for a full timer). Pro rata for a part timer. This very sensible piece of legislation is to ensure employees don't feel they have to give up holiday entitlement in exchange for money.
Lastly, one person suggested contacting HMRC for advice. HMRC deal with many things related to tax and NI regulations, but holiday entitlement is not something they will deal with.
Not sure if I count here as an expert, but I probably have more direct experience working with HR then many people here.
We seem to have established that you work days of equal length. Had you not, the ONLY correct way to calculate holiday is in hours. That does not need to apply here.
People on zero hours contracts have no guarantee of work on a particular day. Nor indeed does the employer have a right to demand work on a specified day. That does not apply here.
You seem to have a contract that specifies a number of days work per year or per month (which is it), but with local agreement as to when you will work these days. Can we confirm this is right, and how far in advance this is fixed.
If one works a five day week, that is 260 days per year. The minimum holiday entitlement is 28 days, so employee works 232 days. I suggest you work out how many working days you work. Or tell us here and we can work it out.
That is the physical number of days you need to attend, and the employer cannot have it both ways by turning around late in the day and say, I want you to work the after next, you say, but I wanted holiday, so the employer says, that counts as your holiday then, pal.
He could refuse you that as time off (though it could be pretty unreasonable) BUT YOUR HOLIDAY IS NOT LOST. It is there for another time. Back to my original assertion that you should work out how many days per year you are contracted to work.
The way payroll are trying to calculate this currently is ridiculous and wrong.
At the end of the holiday year, if you have not had all your holiday shifts, you and your employer could agree to transfer some shifts into the next year, or to pay you for some unused ones, but there are EU WTD regulations compelling employers to ensure employees get at least 20 shifts/days off (for a full timer). Pro rata for a part timer. This very sensible piece of legislation is to ensure employees don't feel they have to give up holiday entitlement in exchange for money.
Lastly, one person suggested contacting HMRC for advice. HMRC deal with many things related to tax and NI regulations, but holiday entitlement is not something they will deal with.
buildersmate, I am contracted to 28 hours a week but usually work about 42, and 28 days AL. per year but I dont think that has anything to do with my question.
I just want to know if my normal days off during my period of AL can be counted as AL by my employer. I cant give an exact example as I work different days each week.
If I book 1 week off, I can not specify which days during that week I want as "paid AL", they just pay the full 14 days as AL, but during those 14 days I would normally of had my normal days off. I am now losing those days, I accept I am being paid for them but I would often like to hold on to a few days for use later in the year.
I just want to know if my normal days off during my period of AL can be counted as AL by my employer. I cant give an exact example as I work different days each week.
If I book 1 week off, I can not specify which days during that week I want as "paid AL", they just pay the full 14 days as AL, but during those 14 days I would normally of had my normal days off. I am now losing those days, I accept I am being paid for them but I would often like to hold on to a few days for use later in the year.
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