Boundary Fence

[rob1295]

property boundry question for you all now...... I have a double fence (new fence secured to older smaller fence) the space between the fence is mine yes? If someone else is using this space to store stuff it is technically on my property? Am concerned that it is damaging my fence but not sure I have courage for confruntation so need to know I am in the right before I do!!!!!! HELP!!!!!

[LoftyLottie]

Yes, the space between your fence and the old boundary fence (presuming the old fence is the boundary fence), the space between is definitely yours.

[LoftyLottie]

However, not sure about the legal position of using the boundary fence as the support for the new fence!!! This doesn't affect the fact that the space between is yours though.

[wimp]

Your boundry stops where you put up the new fence, gap or no gap. the old fence should've been taken down. I can see where your coming from but you have to be so careful with boudry fences! good luck rob1295

[boxtops]

whose fence was the original one, is it your responsibility to maintain, or your naighbour's?

[nannybooby]

you need to check your land registry deeds to see who owns the boundy fence in question (original fence ),see that and take it from there.

[LoftyLottie]

Wimp that is just not correct. Your boundary doesn't even need a fence . What is marked as a boundary on the land registry or deeds remains exactly the same. I know this as an absolute fact. The new fence just becomes a fence in rob's garden.

[buildersmate]

It's guaranteed that this question crops up at least once a month, and it's also guaranteed that a few well-meaning but mis-informed people trot out with the same mis-information. So I'll have yet one more attempt at education.

The legal boundary is shown on the LR title deed plan - typically anotated with a red line showing it. It's called a 'General Boundary' by the LR and they specifically say that you cannot use it to scale from or to work out EXACTLY where a physical boundary should be on the ground. Yes it is true that more recent housing estates often show fence ownership by the letter 'T' that demarcates ownership when the developer carves up the land into little plots separated by fencing he erects. These new plots definitely start life with the fence (physical boundary) aligned to the legal boundary.

The physical boundary is where the fence is on the ground. Ideally both parties will agree that the legal boundary and the physical boundary co-incide. When they don't, disputes arise.

Over time, physical boundaries can (and do) move. Not by much, perhaps, but if the owner of a fence takes it down and puts another back up in a different place, over time the physical boundary will default to a new position - unless the landowner takes steps to make it clear where the legal boundary is - in writing to the adjoining landowner. (I'm not going to propose the wording of such a letter, though I have personally been involved in such a dispute).

So if you've put up a second fence inside the line of the original one (and we must be talking just a few centimetres here?), over time (probably >12 years, but I'm not sure about that), you'd have remarkable trouble getting back to the original boundary back again, if you went to court to try to prove it. If the original fence posts are still there and you wish to maintain your physical land ownership to the original place, you should talk to him next-door explaining this position then follow it up with a letter that states that you have erected a new fence on your land but that you consider that the ownership of your land to be the original posts. Though what you can do with this strip of land seems unclear. None of the above shift in position changes the legal General Boundary between the two plots, as recorded by the LR.

For those needing authenticity to the above principles, see here:

http://www.landregistry.gov.uk/public/faqs/how-do-i-find-out-where-the-boundary-of-my-property-is

http://www.landregistry.gov.uk/public/faqs/how-do-i-find-out-who-owns-andor-has-the-responsibility-for-the-boundary-fencewallhedge-of-a-property

[craft1948]

I had a wall built between mine and next doors driveway. The footings are on my property so as far as I'm aware my actual boundary is about 3" on my neighbours side of the wall.

[buildersmate]

Another important point, Craft. You had no right to put footings on a neighbours land (except in the case of Party Walls) so you (rightly) had to draw back the physical boundary (wall) a few centimetres onto your side. The physical boundary has changed, but the legal boundary hasn't. You'd have great difficulty in persuading the neighbour he had no right to make use of the land right up to the wall (though you'd obviously have the right to stop him piling stuff against your wall). None of this has changed the legal boundary.

[craft1948]

Cheers BM, she already treats the other side of my garage wall as part of her garden.

[LoftyLottie]

So basically, I am right BM. If the original boundary fence is left and it should be made clear with the neighbour that the old boundary fence is still the boundary and that the new fence is within Rob's garden. I have been in this situation because of a problem neighbour and we were told to leave the original fence and put in writing that it still remained the boundary. Also the space between the fences belongs to us. Rob should write to his neighbour then confirming the new fence is on his property and that the old fence should remain.

The neighbour is storing stuff in Rob's garden.

[joko]

could you just put a 'lid' on it? a piece of wood along the top attached to both fences to block the gap an make it one thick fence.

what is he putting in there? planks? garden tools?

[buildersmate]

Lottie
Every case is different, as you know, and the ones that make it as far as the civil courts are those on which important judgements determine case law that shape future judgements.

If a neighbour owning a fence puts up a different fence-line, its fair to assume that that's where he considers his physical boundary to be. If the OP does nothing for several years, a court would probably decide that is where he considered his boundary now is. If it has only just happened he'd perhaps get his land back. Thois one seems a bit strange because the OP has left the original posts in place. But if he does nothing for years and the neighbour uses the space, its probably fair to assume the OP doesn't consider the physical boundary to be in the original place anymore.

All I'm saying here is:
1) one can't use the LR title plan to rely where the physical boundary is on the ground (contrary to what nannybooby believes). Though physical features on the ground (a stone wall, a road, a cliff) if clearly marked on the title plan could aid a court's interpretation and decision. One can pay the LR to determine where the exact boundary is - an expensive process, but cheaper than going to court.
2) don't tempt fate by putting up two sets of boundary markers unless you also cover yourself in writing by making it clear under what terms the neighbour is being permitted access to the land beyond the first set of markers.