Do religious people....

[nailit]

have a problem with reasoning?
I have a few folk that I'm in contact with (of the religious persuasion) and it seems that any mention of a reasoned discussion is out of the equation. Bring reason into the disscusion and it always turned out that 'God' knows best.
I'm very interested in the spiritual/religious side of life but we have to be reasonable as well surely?

[Ankou]

"If cyber conversations count, the first answer on this thread from rozia is an example."

not really good enough. i wantto hear from nailit - or are they just another firelighting wallflower...? it seems nailit asks a question then runs - so what chance do their "religious" friends have?

come on nailit. join in.

[jomifl]

Sith, If you went to a shop and to buy a pound of potatoes, paid for a pound of potatoes and were given an empty bag with the assurance that it did indeed contain a pound of potatoes that would miraculously appear when you got home, you would think the shopkeeper was taking you for a fool. Atheists simply think that an empty bag is exactly that, an empty bag.

[Ankou]

jomifl, in this situation is the greengrocer god ?

[jomifl]

Don't put words in my mouth Ankou, when did I say the shopkeeper was a greengrocer, most general grocers sell potatoes now, you can even buy them in filling stations. If there was to be a god and he was a greengrocer then perhaps the vegetables would be a bit fresher. If you wanted roasted almond you would have to get them from that other chap..whose name escapes me.. :-)

[Ankou]

dunno, if in this hypothetical situation with 3 or 4 spuds in a bag (or not in a bag as the case may be) then if it was god that gave the reassurance then those of a religious persuasion might go home thinking it was true.

as regards all these places that you can get spuds, maybe god (aka the shopkeeper) put them there ....

[jomifl]

Ankou, you may be onto something, next time I go to a filling station that sells spuds I will be on the alert for holy spirits. It would also explain the lack of sulphur....

[seadogg]

Years ago, greengrocers used to put the good looking stuff at the front and serve from the dross at the back of the stall.

Some evangelical sects flog heir creeds in the same way IMO.

To your point nailit, a lot of individuals have a problem with reasoning, religious or not.

[jomifl]

Ankou, I think that a 'greengrocer' god wouldbe preferable to a 'merchant banker'

[Old_Geezer]

One may discuss what one wishes but did God give you permission to judge it ? If it hasn't then remember it knows best and so permission hasn't been granted for a reason.

How can you find God sorely wanting ? It is not possible since you can not have a better knowledge of what is and what is not than a deity, and so are in no position to make judgement.

There is no evidence of what is claimed, at best one can try to deduce such things from books written by other people. But even for the sake of discussion the record is faultless, without knowing why things happened you can not reasonable assign emotions nor personality traits to the actions.

The belief one can is 'built on sand'.

Death happens to us all. For a deity it would not be the tragedy it seems to us mortals. If one person happens to survive a tragedy for a while longer, while another does not, where is the problem for a deity ? Eventually both join it anyway.

[jomifl]

Or not :-)

[FredPuli43]

OG. do you have any other evidence of the existence of God than the writings of men thousands of years ago? They said there is a God. How do you know they were right? Because they said so? Or can you point to something which shows that there must be a god?
And how do you know there are not deities rather than one deity? What evidence is there that people who believe in several gods are in error?
It has proved natural for all societies to believe in a deity or deities. That may be to explain phenomena which, in their ignorance, they could not explain; solar eclipses, earthquakes and so on; or it could be that they simply found it comforting to believe that a deity existed, to which they could appeal and which ordered their lives. That is how the human mind evolved, feeling a need for such comfort and how it works still, but it is not proof that the belief is factually correct.

[nailit]

Ankou ...''' it seems nailit asks a question then runs - so what chance do their "religious" friends have? '''
So because I havnt been on AB for one day Ive legged it??? What odd thinking.

'''can you give an example of one of these conversations that you've actually had? most religious people i know are happy to discuss reasoning and logic '''

I can give you several examples if you like. One that happened recently was with a JW on my doorstep. After agreeing to disagree about the creation/ evolution debate she tried to tell me that the bible was in complete harmony with scientific knowledge. I pointed out that both science and REASON tells us that donkeys, snakes and burning bushes don't hold two way conversations with humans. End of a reasoned discussion.

[Ankou]

a jw on your doorstep ? that doesn't really tally with " I have a few folk that I'm in contact with (of the religious persuasion)"

good try though.

[nailit]

You asked for an example so I gave you one. Sorry if the example given wasnt from one of the few religious people that Im in more regular contact with.

[Ankou]

apology accepted

[Old_Geezer]

Why would I need evidence of existence of God ? And in any case what sort of evidence would be acceptable to a non-believer anyway ? How would I know they who wrote are wrong when a reason for all we sense seems imminently reasonable ? And in any case the decision was to accpet they were faultless for the ske of discussion. Why should I know how many deities there are, save for the reasonable realisation that there needs to be no more than one, so why would there be ? But there again who says those who believe in more than one are in error ? Maybe they aren't in error after all. One still has to find a better explanation as to why anything is at all.

[jomifl]

OG, are you saying that god did the creation of humankind and the other animals were the failed attempt of lesser gods to do the same. Is this a new religion? can we make money out of it?

[ll_billym]

//One still has to find a better explanation as to why anything is at all.//

Ah yes, the old "EVERYTHING is evidence of God". It's a classic.

[birdie1971]

@Old_Geezer:

“... Why would I need evidence of existence of God?...”.

Because this is a debate about reason and logic. If there is no evidence for God then it is reasonable to assume that He doesn't exist. I believe in the existence of invisible, fire-breathing, pink dragons. I have no evidence to suggest that they exist. A reasonable and rational person would conclude that my belief is erroneous.


“... what sort of evidence would be acceptable to a non-believer anyway?...”.

Nothing fancy, just the normal stuff. For example, a verifiable miracle, witnessed and recorded for scientific scrutiny. Since the creator of the universe can manipulate matter as easily as we can manipulate plasticine and since He apparently wants us all to believe in Him, He could simply and publicly defy the laws of physics in an overt way whilst simultaneously announcing His existence to the world. I think that would do it, don't you?


“... Why should I know how many deities there are, save for the reasonable realisation that there needs to be no more than one, so why would there be?..”

You say that it is reasonable to dismiss the existence of all but one deity. If it is reasonable to dismiss the plethora of Gods that the ancient Egyptians and Greeks believed in, why is it so difficult to let that one last God go the same way? It is no more reasonable to believe in one God than it is to believe in multiple Gods and yet you are suggesting that one belief is more reasonable than the other. The fact is, monotheism and polytheism are equally unlikely candidates to explain the existence of the universe.


“... One still has to find a better explanation as to why anything is at all.”.

This is happening right now. The hunt for the Higgs is one key part of the puzzle.

[cupid04]

What did the theists and atheists do yesterday when Ed was having his two hour massage?