What's Needed To Believe ?

[modeller]

I was asked by a theist what would be needed to cause me to:

1. Believe in God .
2. Believe in the bible.

I said 1. A number of verifiable miracles, would make me think about it.
2. Nothing would make me believe in fairy tales.

I then said I'll make it easy for you, just repeat two claimed 'miracles already carried out by Jesus. Make the blind see and the lame walk. If the son can do it then it would be even easier for the father.

So lets start with two people we all know .
Give David Blunket sight and Steven Hawkins mobility.
Do that and you might not have so many empty churches.

What would our non believering ABers need, to at least reconsider , their non belief .

[keyplus90]

Ok, No response from the one who earlier made a claim and other two scholars of Islam are presenting the case now. These people don't even know that the standard of the Quran is still lying in a couple of Museums in the world. Now if someone called a birdie or Naomi would go to a publisher and ask him to print a Quran with added, taken away material and later on claim that "oh, there you go, we have found a Quran that is different from the one Muslims believe", then that would not become Quran. A simple one person sitting in their local Masjid (mosque) would reject that Quran as he would have learnt whole Quran by heart and would catch any alteration does not matter how small. And now a day is the perfect time as Quran is being recited by heart in almost every mosque all over the world. All you need to do is just go there and ask the person who is reciting to add a couple of extra words of your choice and see how quickly people standing behind him in the first line would correct him there and then. And this has been going since the time of the prophet (pbuh) himself. But you would not understand.

But then again I would not waste time on you two. As birdie would run away if I were to say OK, lets see each other face to face and I would bring my evidence you bring your. And if decided by people of your choice that I was wrong then I would become atheist there and then. And the other one would keep on Insisting that we have proved this, we have proved that.

Finally, anyone who talks about Quran found in Sanna or wherever simply does not know the history of collection of Quran as anything written by anyone even at the time of the prophet did not just become Quran automatically.

[LazyGun]

@ Naomi - It was an interesting link, thanks.

@ Keyplus. This seems to be the ultimate get-out-of-jail-free card to me, this tactic you are using.
In another thread, you claimed (I am paraphrasing here, rather than quoting you directly) words to the effect that the 9/11 terrorists were not muslim, because the muslim religion did not endorse such actions, and therefore by taking such actions, they had become non-muslim.
Now you are using the same tactic for the Koran. Islamic scholars have for a very long time claimed - boasted even - that the Koran represents the eternal and unchanging word of god - so finding manuscripts with typographical or editorial differences would actually belay that comment. So, one could well find a koran with textual differences; It may well be possible to find different versions - I am not a scholar of religious bibliography.

All this becomes a problem to a religion sensitive to insult and rabid in its perception of insult and blasphemy toward Mohammed.You might have been asked this before Keyplus, but I do not recall your answer. And honestly, I hate to keep asking people to condemn or rebut the worst excesses of people claiming to act in the name of that faith, but it would provide a baseline of what you, a devout and enthusiastic muslim living in the UK, regard as acceptable and appropriate responses to slights or insults to your faith....

Do you or did you agree with the fatwa issued against Salman Rushdie, for his hints and comments contained within his book "The Satanic Verses" that the Koran might contain text derived from Satan?

Do you or did you agree with the outcry against the cartoons, published in Denmark and elsewhere, which subsequently lead to a failed attempt to murder the illustrator of the cartoons by a muslim? For instance, the street protests in London, where the faithful were calling for heads to be chopped off?

There are quite a few other instances where those professing a muslim faith have become enraged to the extent of riot and mayhem and murder threats and worse at a perceived slight or insult to the koran or mohammed - Do you think that is a healthy and acceptable and appropriate response by a grown up, dignified and allegedly peace-loving religion?

I really do look forward mightily to the day when muslim faithheads transform into your kind of semi-detached CoE or anglican believer - worshipping a god, but tolerant of others beliefs or lack of them. Willing to accept apostasy with a shrug of the shoulders rather than shunning or death threats. Accepting insults toward their prophet or their holy text with good humour rather than fatwahs.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, I’ve told you before – you’re in denial.

LG, the Mormons have the best idea. Instead of taking umbrage at a perceived insult, they used the publicity for the satirical West End musical ‘The Book of Mormon’ to publicise their religion. No call for heads to roll there! Clever.

[LazyGun]

@ Naomi - Aye, I had read about their response to the musical too - as you say, it is infinitely preferable, far more dignified and gracious, exhibits an actual sense of humour and will do them no harm at all in the PR department.

Mind you, the founding principles of their religion really are irrational :)

[naomi24]

LG, Islam isn't big in the PR department - but the Mormons certainly are. Interesting, that one. Mormonism I mean. Isn't it odd that the founders of some of the big religions are reputed - and believed - to have been poor and uneducated - when clearly they weren't?

[modeller]

keyplus You say the words in the Koran have not changed. In view of the fact that the main branches Sunni and Shia plus the minor groups have fought each other for centuries suggests if the words haven't changed then the interpretation has. There are 5 main schools of thought .
http://www.al-islam.org/shiism/4.htm


On another point all this fuss and violence about images being Haram . I have read the Koran and the Hadith but I can't find images being Haram.

[naomi24]

Modeller, //I have read the Koran and the Hadith but I can't find images being Haram.//

I haven’t read all of this, but it might help explain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aniconism_in_Islam

Some Islamic societies have no objection to depicting images of human beings and animals. I have some pictures bought in far flung places – and images of Mohammed, created by Muslims, exist too – although I don’t have any of those.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depictions_of_Muhammad

It seems to me that in recent years certain areas of Islam are becoming far more conservative, some adopting a complete ban on the reproduction of the image of any living creature - and a ban on music and dancing. I don’t suppose all those gorgeous belly dancers in their brief and spangled costumes – or the fully-clad traditional dancers – of the near and middle east go much for that idea. What a bunch of kill-joys! ;o)

[modeller]

It seems to me they re-interpretat it , (make it up) as they go along.

However in the 15/16th centuries they weren't so extreme.

http://zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_full/

[chrisgel]

Excuse my ignorance but is this fuss about depicting Mohammed or any living creature not related to or the same as the 2nd commandment.
I had always thought the 2 things were related. Am I wrong?

[modeller]

keyplus Another example of Islam's inconsistency, you make something Haram ( banned ) and then if it turns out to be nonsense later on in practice, you can make it fatwa. ( allowed ). Where's that fit in with your unchanging Koran . Is it any wonder every Islamic country practices it's faith differently.

[modeller]

Yes chrisgel but if a commandment or any other rule is found to be inconsistent with a changing society a Mufti can issue a Fatwa and change it.

[chrisgel]

Thanks modeller.

[naomi24]

Modeller, the Koran is made of elastic. The words appear to be unchanging, but give it to a scholar with an agenda and he will interpret those very same words to mean anything Islam wants them to mean. Did you know that the Koran contains details of scientific discoveries yet to be made? I’ve often wondered why none of these brilliant scholars has recognised them and made a fortune!! A Nobel Prize at the very least one would have thought. ;o)

[joko]

yep, short of god showing up and proving it, nothing much would convert me.

the stories of people who become religious because of a dream or they survived something that should have killed them or they saw an image of jesus in a puddle or something, are just so desperate to 'find' something, that they can be convinced easily

[birdie1971]

Keyplus - “... As birdie would run away if I were to say OK, lets see each other face to face...”

What are you saying now you utter imbecile?

You're trying to make it look like I want to meet you!?! Are you clinically insane?

I DO NOT EVER WANT TO MEET YOU. I CONSIDER YOU TO BE MENTALLY UNHINGED AND POTENTIALLY VIOLENT.

Is that clear enough for you, you complete fantasist?

[birdie1971]

Please don't let my above post stifle debate. I just want Keyplus to *f* off with his incessant, “I want to meet you, I want to meet you...” nonsense. He's like one of those yappy little dogs that never shuts up and just goes on and on and on and on...

[WyeDyed]

I am a Muslim but I believe that he did because Quran says so
I think that about sums it up

[vetuste_ennemi]

If you want him to go away stop talking to him, Birdie.