A question directed chiefly at the few atheists amongst us here on AB...

[sandyRoe]

What fault is it in the human character that has led us, in all races, all times, and all places, to 'invent' Gods?

[jomifl]

Sandy, to answer the question briefly, from what I have read here, the fault is vanity, you think that you have something 'special'.... you don't.

[andy-hughes]

Actually jomifl, I am going to sandyRoe's defence here.

A cornerstone of Christianity is the belief of Christians that they are joyous because of God's love and willingness to save them.

I have no problem with that at all - it what Christians believe and what makes them happy - and hopefully good people, although that is by no means assured as history and headlines remind us.

My only issue, as I am debating with Cupid, is the notion that such happiness and assuredness of an eternal life is an entitlement to feel superior and / or sympathetic to those who do not share their belief. As an aetheist, I find that approach offensive.

We are debating faith, not fact - I do not accept that anyone has the right to set themselves up as morally superior to others based on a personal belief system.

[cupid04]

I'm sorry you take offence, when none is intended. I didn't mean to sound
pitying either. The only way I can describe my faith so that you might understand a little clearer is:- Say you have some really good news in your
life, the first thing you want to do is share it, that is all I'm trying to do. You
can either except it or not. God gave us freedom of choice.

[jomifl]

Andy,you don't need to defend Sandy, he obviously has god on his side. I am quite disappointed in Sandy's cheap trick of appearing to start an intelligent discussion only to resort to biblical quotes at the earliest opportunity. I have to assume that he has realised that he has no arguments of his own to martial in defence of his patronising stance.

[emmie]

no he didn't, it's up to the individual what to do with his or her life, not be dictated to or told how to live it. If there is good news in my life i would share it with loved ones, it has nothing to do with being a person of faith.

[mccfluff]

i think we're being ignored pa___ul

[Ankou]

there is no answer for you fluff. the words were originally penned by eusebius of caesarea in the early 300's which itself was adapted from an ancient egyptian incantation.

so if they were the words of a god, one must ask, which one ?

[mccfluff]

but how do you know they were from a god or gods none of us were around at the time

[andy-hughes]

cupid - thank you for your aplogy - graciouosly accepted.

As I pointed out in my last post, i completely understand the joy of personal faith, and the urge to share it, which is a positive force in the world.

Where I come to grief with the Chritian ethos is the notion that becuase a Christian has faith and is joyful and enriched through it, that an aetheist must conversely be miserable and bereft for lack of it, and therefore deserving od sympathy and ion some cases, a rather superior 'Lucky me - poor you' interface.

For me, faith is something which you have - or do not have. No amount of other people telling me how much I am 'missing out' is going to place a faith in my mind / heart / soul - espcially when balanced with the apparent absence of God's love and bounty in the world today.

I have no problem recnciling the evil that men do to each other - that is the way mankind is,, always has been, and no immediate signs of change.

Christians however have a seriously uphill struggle in defending the actions of their own ministers who, although a minority, use their power and status to shun those they feel unworthy of them, and abuse the innocent and defenceless who are placed within their supposed care.

"Suffer the little children ..." Jesus is supposed to have said.

I rest my case.

[Ankou]

oi fluffmeister, i didn't say they was gods words.

[jomifl]

''They are God's words and they have stood the test of time for millions of
faithful worshipers. ''

Cupid, I am sure that you knew what you meant when you wrote the above, but could you explain what you meant and/or justify it.

[mccfluff]

i know :-)

but still, it baffles me how anyone can actually know

[andy-hughes]

mcfluff - no-one can 'know', that is the pure definition of faith, believing something to be true without concrete evidence.

All relgions are based entirely on a willingness for believers to hold faith - that the existance of their deity is real, even though there is no evidence to support that belief, but sadly, mountains of evidence to the contrary.

No wonder faith is so difficult to maintain - it does take a certain minddst to be able to see past the evils of humanity and find some belief that there is a benevolent and loving god (God?) who allows all this to happen without intervention.

[LazyGun]

@cupid You have absolutely no idea what levels of understanding the various posters here have of christianity. Your attempt to portray mockery as ignorance is as specious as the rest of your contributions supporting faith and religion.

In your version of reality, There is a god and your faith is rewarded -But that is all it is - your version of reality. That does not make it true.Empirically speaking, the notion of a supernatural god, able to intercede in human matters is evidenced only by the claims of the faithful, who point to the bible and alleged miracles as some sort of corroborative evidence. Why do you imagine that those of you who choose to believe in the absence of evidence (ie faith) should be afforded respect? Please tell me why I should offer automatic respect or deference to individuals and ideas I consider to be delusional? I may come to respect individual posters or people in my life based around their deeds, but I don't believe anyone is deserving of automatic, unquestioned, unearned respect.

I resent the fact that faithheads on here almost invariably portray themselves as having "a greater appreciation of the world" or a warm fuzzy feeling inside that us poor, ignorant ( or benighted. to use Sandys rather insulting description) atheists cannot possibly conceive of. The breathtaking arrogance of such an assumption is irritating beyond measure.

Andy Hughes displays a level of generosity towards those of personal faith that I cannot ever hope to match.I think that religious faith is a corrosive, retrograde influence on humanity -medieval moralising, xenophobic intolerance, violence and blood as the currency of enforcement, its insistence on special protection from criticism and ridicule -All of this whilst those same religions and its adherents describe themselves as religions of peace, or filled with love for humanity! Pious claptrap!

While religions and faith continue to affect humanity, I will mock and deride it wherever I find it.

[Ankou]

""Suffer the little children ..." Jesus is supposed to have said"

andy i doubt if jesus existed that he said that in english. and if by any chance he did, until the mid 14th c suffer in olde english meant 'allow'.

hence these gods have no issue with allowing people to suffer.....

[andy-hughes]

Ankou - I am aware of the bibilcal meaning of 'Suffer the children ...' in the bible's use of the phrase - I quoted it as a 'double meaning' - but yoiu are right - it is ancient English - as is the bible itself.

[mibn2cweus]

At the heart of any intentional purposeful evil is the belief, unfounded, that such is good and just while being neither good nor justified. Belief for the sake of unquestioned, questionable benefits derived, paves the path to destruction in a reality that ultimately will not be denied.

[jomifl]

LG I too am getting a little tired of Sandy's inability to mention the word 'atheist' without attached some kind of derogatory adjective to it. Ironically many of the 'godbods' on AB accuse the atheists of mocking them, the words 'eye' and 'plank' come to mind. Sandy must have been on a propaganda foundation course where he was taught that if you say something often enough people will think it is true (even after 2000 years of increasing disbelief) , hence the 'few' atheists in the title of this thread. This attempt to deceive flies in the face of reality as it seems more likely that the atheists outnumber the believers on AB especially if contributions to this section are anything to go by.

[jomifl]

Andy, some bibles are in ancient English some are in modern English, some are in strange foreign languages, some are in ancient strange foreign languages.

[Ankou]

"I too am getting a little tired of Sandy's inability to mention the word 'atheist' without attached some kind of derogatory adjective to it."

it don't phaze me one jot. its only words. if he thinks i am unenlightened to his faith, why would it concern me ?