ChatterBank3 mins ago
Ghosts
I would never normally consider posting a question about ghosts in this section but I think I'll get the best answer here.
I do not believe in any supernatural phenomena, however I was speaking to some members of a family we have known for years and was very surprised to find that 3 adult members of this family did. They claimed that each of them had independently seen the ghost of an old man in their bathroom, and various other seemingly paranormal events, objects moving, noises etc.
I didn't know what to say to them, I completely do not believe in these type of events yet I consider these people to be completely honest, sane and genine.
Noises and other minor events can generally be explained by logical means, but can anyone offer an explanation for actually seeing ghosts, particularly people seeing the same ghost?
Any suggestions would be greatly received, it's almost enough to make me question my own beliefs.
I do not believe in any supernatural phenomena, however I was speaking to some members of a family we have known for years and was very surprised to find that 3 adult members of this family did. They claimed that each of them had independently seen the ghost of an old man in their bathroom, and various other seemingly paranormal events, objects moving, noises etc.
I didn't know what to say to them, I completely do not believe in these type of events yet I consider these people to be completely honest, sane and genine.
Noises and other minor events can generally be explained by logical means, but can anyone offer an explanation for actually seeing ghosts, particularly people seeing the same ghost?
Any suggestions would be greatly received, it's almost enough to make me question my own beliefs.
Answers
People can be wrong, the eye in particular is untrustworth
23:23 Sun 18th Aug 2013
You'll have to tell me about it some time gness, but I promise you aren't mad! (Probably.)
In the meantime, grasscarp, why can there never be proof one way or another? So far the trend in history is that more and more things are becoming explained to some extent, things that often were thought to be unexplainable beforehand. Anything that is real ought to be explainable, because if it is there it can be examined, observed, looked at. I'm not convinced that ghosts will be any different, and therefore expect that if they do physically exist it will be demonstrably the case that they do -- and equivalently, it should be possible to demonstrate (albeit less convincingly, as you cannot "prove" a negative) that they probably do not physically exist.
Either way, it seems a bad argument to say that you can't prove something one way or another -- at least, without also demonstrating why you can't prove it. Otherwise you just have a belief that is unfalsifiable, and also unprovable, and if so you were just "wasting your time".
In the meantime, grasscarp, why can there never be proof one way or another? So far the trend in history is that more and more things are becoming explained to some extent, things that often were thought to be unexplainable beforehand. Anything that is real ought to be explainable, because if it is there it can be examined, observed, looked at. I'm not convinced that ghosts will be any different, and therefore expect that if they do physically exist it will be demonstrably the case that they do -- and equivalently, it should be possible to demonstrate (albeit less convincingly, as you cannot "prove" a negative) that they probably do not physically exist.
Either way, it seems a bad argument to say that you can't prove something one way or another -- at least, without also demonstrating why you can't prove it. Otherwise you just have a belief that is unfalsifiable, and also unprovable, and if so you were just "wasting your time".
It's never a "waste of time" to tell a ghost story. Everybody loves to hear a story that they haven't heard before, after all.
Those of us with an analytical frame of mind cannot resist another puzzle to get our teeth into, ask questions about, brew up alternative explanations for and - if it's still unresolved, all the better. Stick it to the bedpost and chew over it another night.
Regular reminders that science hasn't "got it all covered", by a long chalk, can only be healthy.
Personally, I have never seen one. I will confess to having watched a few series of Most Haunted but only because it was hysterically funny at times. Their online forum has to be experienced to be believed, if you are a skeptic. Some people have brains which automatically convert the words "I don't believe you" into "you're a liar".
So I have an interest in the human behaviour surrounding the concept of ghosts and any discussion about them as well as the subject itself.
Those of us with an analytical frame of mind cannot resist another puzzle to get our teeth into, ask questions about, brew up alternative explanations for and - if it's still unresolved, all the better. Stick it to the bedpost and chew over it another night.
Regular reminders that science hasn't "got it all covered", by a long chalk, can only be healthy.
Personally, I have never seen one. I will confess to having watched a few series of Most Haunted but only because it was hysterically funny at times. Their online forum has to be experienced to be believed, if you are a skeptic. Some people have brains which automatically convert the words "I don't believe you" into "you're a liar".
So I have an interest in the human behaviour surrounding the concept of ghosts and any discussion about them as well as the subject itself.
ELVIS68
A few years ago I was walking along a railway track with a colleague and about 50 yards infront of us a small blanket of mist appeared from the trees and drifted across both tracks and disappeared into the trees on the other side.
At first we thought it must've been smoke from a tractor or something similar but when we got near there was nothing but trees either side.
I'm not a believer in ghosts but to this day I still wonder what it was
00:11 Mon 19th Aug 2013
A few years ago I was walking along a railway track with a colleague and about 50 yards infront of us a small blanket of mist appeared from the trees and drifted across both tracks and disappeared into the trees on the other side.
At first we thought it must've been smoke from a tractor or something similar but when we got near there was nothing but trees either side.
I'm not a believer in ghosts but to this day I still wonder what it was
00:11 Mon 19th Aug 2013
I've seen and experienced a few things that i think many others would describe as "ghosts". I still don't believe in them though. I think that it's just i don't personally know the explanation.
To be honest, I have very little understanding of how my car engine works, but I'm sure it is "explainable" with the right knowledge.
To be honest, I have very little understanding of how my car engine works, but I'm sure it is "explainable" with the right knowledge.
I have often tried to convince people that their senses are extremely unreliable. It is only when you compare your senses with a dispassionate and disinterested instrument such as a compass or a spirit level that you realise how unreliable your senses are. I once got into a row with a colleague who swore that the theodolite that I was using was pointing at the ground. Fortunately I believed the theodolite so that was a day not wasted.
Sometimes experience clouds judgement, though -- especially in this sort of case, when that personal experience could be down to so many other reasons than that there actually was something to see. And the thing is that everyone would rather trust their own senses. Of course they would -- what else have we got? Yet in many cases our senses, our own brains, deceive us. How easy is it to admit to yourself that you might be wrong about what you saw, or how you interpreted it? As we have seen in this thread, in the other one about ghosts, in the threads about dowsing, and the paranormal in general... people either dodge the issue about their own biases and flawed senses, or turn it into some sort of personal attack: "Are you saying I'm deluded/ lying?"
As it happens, I have had some weird experiences, although not all that many that stick in my head, anyway. As far as I'm concerned these are signs either of my brain playing tricks on me, or coincidences that I read too much into. As long as I haven't had experience of the "truly weird", whatever that means, I suppose it's hard to convince some people that I know what I'm talking about, but I think that's a false argument. I never said I "know" what I'm talking about, exactly, I'm merely offering an explanation that is highly plausible and I think it dismissed too lightly. Witness grasscarp's "It wasn't in my mind, it was there" -- but how does she know this? What effort did she take to rule out that explanation conclusively? I don't know the answer to that one either, I suppose, but it's likely that the answer was basically no effort at all. Because that's what most people do. They hear or see something, they jump to a conclusion, they trust their senses, and rarely if ever think that it might be their brain playing tricks on them. And so these stories continue, and they will always continue.
As it happens, I have had some weird experiences, although not all that many that stick in my head, anyway. As far as I'm concerned these are signs either of my brain playing tricks on me, or coincidences that I read too much into. As long as I haven't had experience of the "truly weird", whatever that means, I suppose it's hard to convince some people that I know what I'm talking about, but I think that's a false argument. I never said I "know" what I'm talking about, exactly, I'm merely offering an explanation that is highly plausible and I think it dismissed too lightly. Witness grasscarp's "It wasn't in my mind, it was there" -- but how does she know this? What effort did she take to rule out that explanation conclusively? I don't know the answer to that one either, I suppose, but it's likely that the answer was basically no effort at all. Because that's what most people do. They hear or see something, they jump to a conclusion, they trust their senses, and rarely if ever think that it might be their brain playing tricks on them. And so these stories continue, and they will always continue.
steveb - "Any suggestions would be greatly received, it's almost enough to make me question my own beliefs."
I think that is the crux of it, its likely that one of those those three people suggested that it was a ghost they saw (couldn't possibly be anything else, right?) and the other two went along with the idea initially (who doesn't want to feel special about a connection to the 'spiritual' world, right, and if Nigel says it was a ghost who am I to argue?) and after a while it became the accepted truth. When they spoke to you about it, they probably discussed it in a corroborative way, but individually - unless they had discussed and agreed at length the finer details - they would probably come out with different features and recollections.
Even intelligent people are open and receptive to suggestive truths, some even believe what they read in the papers!
I think that is the crux of it, its likely that one of those those three people suggested that it was a ghost they saw (couldn't possibly be anything else, right?) and the other two went along with the idea initially (who doesn't want to feel special about a connection to the 'spiritual' world, right, and if Nigel says it was a ghost who am I to argue?) and after a while it became the accepted truth. When they spoke to you about it, they probably discussed it in a corroborative way, but individually - unless they had discussed and agreed at length the finer details - they would probably come out with different features and recollections.
Even intelligent people are open and receptive to suggestive truths, some even believe what they read in the papers!
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