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A Lesson Not Learnt
Jeremy Forrest mouthing I LOVE YOU in court to the underage pupil he had an affair and absconded to France with shows he either doesn't appreciate what he's done wrong or doesn't care. So IMO he deserves a very long sentence until at the very least he gets it into his thick head why such a relationship is wrong. The fact that the girl apparently responded the same way, also apologising and pledging to wait til he's free is not such a concern as she is an infatuated child. By the time Forrest gets out she may well have moved on, though if she is allowed to visit him in jail that will perpetuate an illicit romance for the Media. I've also been disturbed by glowing references Forrests fellow teachers gave to help his case, which surely condone his actions and therefore also make those teachers unsuitable for their jobs. Surely Forrest should never be allowed anywhere near a school again. what do you think?
Answers
All those trying to mitigate Forrest's actions by blaming the parenting, the school, anyone else or any organisation are shooting themselves in the foot! In doing so they admit this man's grotesque guilt, and they should applaud the court's findings. For an adult man, teacher or not, to "fall in love" with a 14-15 year-old girl is a danger to society if that...
21:05 Fri 21st Jun 2013
I have to say that the words of the prosecutor as quoted above remind me of the testimony of some Victorian gentleman, musing rather too hard on the "fallen women" of the East End before going out to "minister to them" :-)
"It is about his desires to have that young sexual flesh, to satisfy his own carnal lusts."
Hmm, yes :-)
"It is about his desires to have that young sexual flesh, to satisfy his own carnal lusts."
Hmm, yes :-)
baz,if you ever expect counsel to believe what they say, you are an incurable optimist! They have to present the best argument that they think the evidence will bear and whether they believe it is one they would accept themselves is irrelevant to their considerations. But I do deplore the current habit of some prosecuting counsel of using emotive language in opening the case to the jury. Open the case low and finish it high is the rule, and emotive language should not be a part of the opening.
/// This man has allowed an infatuation to become pseudo-reality, ///
How do you know it was or is an infatuation Andy, have you never heard of the word Love?
Being in love can cause much trouble in some circumstances and it can affect different people in different ways, so much is it's force.
Although she may have been a few months short of the legal age, and perhaps to most of us we would not have been put in a position such as this teacher, pupil relationship, but many have balanced their love against their jobs, their family, and many have given up an entire life style to be with the person they love.
Who can judge this teacher, let those cast the first stone.
/// It is apparent that he also has the mind of a fifteen-year-old, ///
That is completely unfair Andy, this chap is no paedophile, child groomer, or lecherous older man, his only crime was to fall in love, with a person the state says is under aged.
The age of consent in Spain is 13 and 15 in France.
How do you know it was or is an infatuation Andy, have you never heard of the word Love?
Being in love can cause much trouble in some circumstances and it can affect different people in different ways, so much is it's force.
Although she may have been a few months short of the legal age, and perhaps to most of us we would not have been put in a position such as this teacher, pupil relationship, but many have balanced their love against their jobs, their family, and many have given up an entire life style to be with the person they love.
Who can judge this teacher, let those cast the first stone.
/// It is apparent that he also has the mind of a fifteen-year-old, ///
That is completely unfair Andy, this chap is no paedophile, child groomer, or lecherous older man, his only crime was to fall in love, with a person the state says is under aged.
The age of consent in Spain is 13 and 15 in France.
As anyone who has been involved in counselling - even on a non-professional level as I have - knows that there is a very very fine line between emotional dependence and perceived sexual attraction.
The individual being counselled and supported comes to develop a relationship with their counsellor which can very very easily tip over into a sexual infatuation, which is not based on any sense of reality. The 'attraction' is a facet of the dependence, and when the dependence is lifted, the 'attraction' vanishes instantly, because it was never really present in the first place.
The trained counsellor or support person will be aware of this potential situation, and gently but firmly steer the relationship back onto its natural base - closeness, but not any notion of a romantic and / or sexual relationship.
In this case, it appears that this immature man has allowed his sense of perspective to desert him, and to bask in the dependency of a vulnerable teenager, instead of seeing the situation for what it was. What should happen is that the girl matures, and looks back in later life with faint embarassment at her imagined feelings for her teacher - because the teacher has been in this situation plenty of times before, and understands how it works, and how to handle it.
His continued unwillingness, or inability to live in the real world - as evidenced by their 'romantic' trip abroad with no forward plan whatsoever - continues as he believes that this is - as has been described - a Romeo and Juliet scenario - when patently, from a dispassionate adult perspective, it is nothing of the sort.
The individual being counselled and supported comes to develop a relationship with their counsellor which can very very easily tip over into a sexual infatuation, which is not based on any sense of reality. The 'attraction' is a facet of the dependence, and when the dependence is lifted, the 'attraction' vanishes instantly, because it was never really present in the first place.
The trained counsellor or support person will be aware of this potential situation, and gently but firmly steer the relationship back onto its natural base - closeness, but not any notion of a romantic and / or sexual relationship.
In this case, it appears that this immature man has allowed his sense of perspective to desert him, and to bask in the dependency of a vulnerable teenager, instead of seeing the situation for what it was. What should happen is that the girl matures, and looks back in later life with faint embarassment at her imagined feelings for her teacher - because the teacher has been in this situation plenty of times before, and understands how it works, and how to handle it.
His continued unwillingness, or inability to live in the real world - as evidenced by their 'romantic' trip abroad with no forward plan whatsoever - continues as he believes that this is - as has been described - a Romeo and Juliet scenario - when patently, from a dispassionate adult perspective, it is nothing of the sort.
AOG - our posts have crossed, so I must now address the points you have raised.
" ...have you never heard of the word Love?" I am not going to dignify such an unpleasant and deeply insulting question with a response.
"That is completely unfair Andy, this chap is no paedophile, child groomer, or lecherous older man, his only crime was to fall in love, with a person the state says is under aged."
You take me to task for making reasoned assumptions which in my case are based on personal experience, and then you make such sweeping statements based on media coverfage. If I am in no position to make a pronouncement about this man, then neither are you.
"The age of consent in Spain is 13 and 15 in France."
At no time in my posts have i raised the issue of the age of consent - but for the record, European legislation is irrelavent here - it is the law of the country where this couple live that applies.
i am happy to admit that I am making my views based on - as I said - personal experience, but which ever way it is approached, it is hard to defend the acftions of an adult who takes a child away from her family without thought of the fear and upset he would cause for them. That sort of blinkered self-centered behaviour is adolsecent - and backs up my perception that this man is immature, and needs to grow up.
" ...have you never heard of the word Love?" I am not going to dignify such an unpleasant and deeply insulting question with a response.
"That is completely unfair Andy, this chap is no paedophile, child groomer, or lecherous older man, his only crime was to fall in love, with a person the state says is under aged."
You take me to task for making reasoned assumptions which in my case are based on personal experience, and then you make such sweeping statements based on media coverfage. If I am in no position to make a pronouncement about this man, then neither are you.
"The age of consent in Spain is 13 and 15 in France."
At no time in my posts have i raised the issue of the age of consent - but for the record, European legislation is irrelavent here - it is the law of the country where this couple live that applies.
i am happy to admit that I am making my views based on - as I said - personal experience, but which ever way it is approached, it is hard to defend the acftions of an adult who takes a child away from her family without thought of the fear and upset he would cause for them. That sort of blinkered self-centered behaviour is adolsecent - and backs up my perception that this man is immature, and needs to grow up.
I'm not defending this person, i just think theres the usual knee jerk over reaction.
Yes its against the law, she was underage..just, but sexual predator, kidnapper...do me a favour
Abuse of trust....to the letter of the law maybe....but in reality..though shall not fall in love with a schoolgirl !?
Yes its against the law, she was underage..just, but sexual predator, kidnapper...do me a favour
Abuse of trust....to the letter of the law maybe....but in reality..though shall not fall in love with a schoolgirl !?
/// ...have you never heard of the word Love?" I am not going to dignify such an unpleasant and deeply insulting question with a response. ///
You seem to take such a dramatic and sensational view on things, asking the question "have you never heard of the word love" was in no way meant to be 'UNPLEASANT', or even 'DEEPLY INSULTING' it was simply meant to draw your attention to the possibility that the couple could be in love.
Incidentally you yourself are not slow to dish out the insults against a person you know little about, except that he was a teacher who fell in love with a pupil.
/// You take me to task for making reasoned assumptions which in my case are based on personal experience, and then you make such sweeping statements based on media coverfage. ///
How very pompous of you to state that your views are "reasoned assumptions" yet mine are only based on "Media coverage", which is completely untrue, as I have yet to find any of the media to support my own personal feelings on this matter.
/// If I am in no position to make a pronouncement about this man, then neither are you. ///
No one said you are not in such a position, this is a debate Andy and there are always two sides to an argument.
/// At no time in my posts have i raised the issue of the age of consent ///
And at no time did I say you did, I was just pointing out a relevant fact.
/// but which ever way it is approached, it is hard to defend the acftions of an adult who takes a child away from her family without thought of the fear and upset he would cause for them. ///
This young woman is not a child in the true sense of the word, and he did not forceful take her away from her family, she also (if not more so) chose not to consider her parents.
/// That sort of blinkered self-centered behaviour is adolsecent - and backs up my perception that this man is immature, and needs to grow up. ///
So according to you everyone who chooses to take part in some form of self-centred behaviour is not only adolescent, immature and needs to grow up.
I wonder how many of us now fit this description?
You seem to take such a dramatic and sensational view on things, asking the question "have you never heard of the word love" was in no way meant to be 'UNPLEASANT', or even 'DEEPLY INSULTING' it was simply meant to draw your attention to the possibility that the couple could be in love.
Incidentally you yourself are not slow to dish out the insults against a person you know little about, except that he was a teacher who fell in love with a pupil.
/// You take me to task for making reasoned assumptions which in my case are based on personal experience, and then you make such sweeping statements based on media coverfage. ///
How very pompous of you to state that your views are "reasoned assumptions" yet mine are only based on "Media coverage", which is completely untrue, as I have yet to find any of the media to support my own personal feelings on this matter.
/// If I am in no position to make a pronouncement about this man, then neither are you. ///
No one said you are not in such a position, this is a debate Andy and there are always two sides to an argument.
/// At no time in my posts have i raised the issue of the age of consent ///
And at no time did I say you did, I was just pointing out a relevant fact.
/// but which ever way it is approached, it is hard to defend the acftions of an adult who takes a child away from her family without thought of the fear and upset he would cause for them. ///
This young woman is not a child in the true sense of the word, and he did not forceful take her away from her family, she also (if not more so) chose not to consider her parents.
/// That sort of blinkered self-centered behaviour is adolsecent - and backs up my perception that this man is immature, and needs to grow up. ///
So according to you everyone who chooses to take part in some form of self-centred behaviour is not only adolescent, immature and needs to grow up.
I wonder how many of us now fit this description?
Thanks jno.
I was wondering whether to follow on from AOG's minute dissection of my responses, during which he points out the errors of my thinking and approach - or whether I simply cannot be bothered because we so rarely agree on our approaches to any debate we undertake.
I think there is only ever any point in respondng to responses if there is some atom of hope that the other party is going to accept another point of view, rather than simply dismising instances such as my post, where i felt that asking if I have 'heard of love?' is an offensive remarek to make.
Because AOG did not mean to be rude or insulting. it is beholden on me not to react in such a way - and yet he refers to me as pompous!
In this instance, i shall confine my responses to posts to those other than AOG - it simply takes too much time and energy, and today, I have neither.
The thrust of my argument, as I am sure you grasp jno, is not that it is fundamentally wrong for this couple to 'fall in love' - and that debate is something we cannot have, knowing neither of them personally - it is the fact that because this man believes himself to be in a loving relationship, he takes it upon himself to remove this girl (and girl is what she is, by any reasonable definition) from her family, school and country with no obvious means of support or reasoned future for both of them.
Falling in love is fine, removing an under-age schoolgirl from her home,family and country without advising her parents of her safety, is not.
I was wondering whether to follow on from AOG's minute dissection of my responses, during which he points out the errors of my thinking and approach - or whether I simply cannot be bothered because we so rarely agree on our approaches to any debate we undertake.
I think there is only ever any point in respondng to responses if there is some atom of hope that the other party is going to accept another point of view, rather than simply dismising instances such as my post, where i felt that asking if I have 'heard of love?' is an offensive remarek to make.
Because AOG did not mean to be rude or insulting. it is beholden on me not to react in such a way - and yet he refers to me as pompous!
In this instance, i shall confine my responses to posts to those other than AOG - it simply takes too much time and energy, and today, I have neither.
The thrust of my argument, as I am sure you grasp jno, is not that it is fundamentally wrong for this couple to 'fall in love' - and that debate is something we cannot have, knowing neither of them personally - it is the fact that because this man believes himself to be in a loving relationship, he takes it upon himself to remove this girl (and girl is what she is, by any reasonable definition) from her family, school and country with no obvious means of support or reasoned future for both of them.
Falling in love is fine, removing an under-age schoolgirl from her home,family and country without advising her parents of her safety, is not.
AOG do you think it is right for anyone, teacher or not , to take a 15 year old away to France without telling anyone?
This man was a teacher.What he did, whatever the motive, love or not, was in serious breach of trust.
Do you think it is possible for a girl of this age to be persuaded that she is in love? Do you think that she understands that with the maturity of a grown woman?
This man was a teacher.What he did, whatever the motive, love or not, was in serious breach of trust.
Do you think it is possible for a girl of this age to be persuaded that she is in love? Do you think that she understands that with the maturity of a grown woman?
Fred - AOG seems to be playing devil's advocate, or simply refuses to allow for simple moral behaviour,and the anseence thereof lack of which is not excused by 'love'
"This young woman is not a child in the true sense of the word, and he did not forceful take her away from her family, she also (if not more so) chose not to consider her parents."
This person is precisely a child in the true sense of the word - she is FIFTEEN!!!
Yes, as i pointed out, immature infatuated children will act egocentrically and without thought for the wider implications of their behaviour, and its effect on those who love them.
But thirty-year-old men in positions of trust and authority are presumed to be above such immaturity - exept in this case, this man is patently not.
"This young woman is not a child in the true sense of the word, and he did not forceful take her away from her family, she also (if not more so) chose not to consider her parents."
This person is precisely a child in the true sense of the word - she is FIFTEEN!!!
Yes, as i pointed out, immature infatuated children will act egocentrically and without thought for the wider implications of their behaviour, and its effect on those who love them.
But thirty-year-old men in positions of trust and authority are presumed to be above such immaturity - exept in this case, this man is patently not.
"That is completely unfair Andy, this chap is no paedophile, child groomer, or lecherous older man, his only crime was to fall in love, with a person the state says is under aged.
The age of consent in Spain is 13 and 15 in France. "
Thats largely irrelevant really. He has been found guilty of child abduction, which is against the law in most countries and Article 11 of the UN Convention on the Rights of a Child.
The age of consent in Spain is 13 and 15 in France. "
Thats largely irrelevant really. He has been found guilty of child abduction, which is against the law in most countries and Article 11 of the UN Convention on the Rights of a Child.
andy-hughes
/// I think there is only ever any point in respondng to responses if there is some atom of hope that the other party is going to accept another point of view, ///
Especially if that other point of view happens to be Andy Hughes point of view, when you are prepared to accept another's point of view, then perhaps others will return the complement.
/// I think there is only ever any point in respondng to responses if there is some atom of hope that the other party is going to accept another point of view, ///
Especially if that other point of view happens to be Andy Hughes point of view, when you are prepared to accept another's point of view, then perhaps others will return the complement.
Thanks boxtops.
I continue to see no way in which this behaviour can be remotely excused.
To be in a position where a vulnerable child will consider leaving the country with no apparent means of support or future plan in place indicates that inapropriate behaviour was already established before the journey took place.
Teachers are not allowed the luxury of 'falling in love' with under-age pupils - the role is more than hinted at in the job title - 'teacher'.
I continue to see no way in which this behaviour can be remotely excused.
To be in a position where a vulnerable child will consider leaving the country with no apparent means of support or future plan in place indicates that inapropriate behaviour was already established before the journey took place.
Teachers are not allowed the luxury of 'falling in love' with under-age pupils - the role is more than hinted at in the job title - 'teacher'.
AOG - I have noi problem accepting anyone else's point of view - including yours.
It's just that no-one routinely dissects my responses, and adds sub-anseers to each and every point, and no-one else thinks my taking offence at their posts is my fault not theirs, and no-one else thinks I am pompouus.
Just you, only ever you, only ever likely to be you.
It's just that no-one routinely dissects my responses, and adds sub-anseers to each and every point, and no-one else thinks my taking offence at their posts is my fault not theirs, and no-one else thinks I am pompouus.
Just you, only ever you, only ever likely to be you.
/// This person is precisely a child in the true sense of the word - she is FIFTEEN!!! ///
This is truly amazing, In the Asian child grooming cases, when I rightly classed a 13 year old as a child, I was lambasted by many on AB, who stated that she was not a child but an adolescent.
How descriptions can be changed to fit another's personal agenda.
This is truly amazing, In the Asian child grooming cases, when I rightly classed a 13 year old as a child, I was lambasted by many on AB, who stated that she was not a child but an adolescent.
How descriptions can be changed to fit another's personal agenda.
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