Divide Or Unite

[modeller]

On the news they are showing how Northern Ireland is uniting by having mixed primary schools with Catholics and Protestants. They showed such a school enjoying a visit from Obama .

Why is it that the way ahead is to be achieved in NI by educating the children together whilst at the same we are doing the opposite and splitting our society apart by building hundreds of faith schools. ? In my local area alone we have eight faith schools and more are planned , two opening in the Autumn. What could be more divisive ?

[naomi24]

Jim, it might not form a core part education, but in faith schools of whatever flavour, religion is taught as fact – and if, as you say, your school taught it from a moral point of view, it is still the view of that particular religion. Just as an example, a CofE school wouldn’t teach that it’s a sin to imbibe alcohol – but an Islamic one would. The fundamental tenets are there, and they are taught.

[jim360]

As best as I can remember, very few conclusions were ever reached, although there was certainly a Christian slant to the debates -- on e.g. abortion and euthanasia, etc. Nevertheless it was a minor element and the aim was to encourage people to think about this and to consider contrary views, rather than to reject such views out of hand. One debate I remember, is one where the house believed that the world "would be a better place without religion". The ayes had it! So, in my opinion, while implicitly Christianity was taken to be factual, it was rarely made explicit, and when it came down to it frequently the atheist position won out.

So in conclusion, I think you are wrong to say that this particular faith school was a centre of indoctrination, or some such. On the other hand, I doubt that this is the case in most faith schools, so perhaps I was just lucky.

In the long run faith schools ought to be phased out but only as a matter of course rather than as an imposed view. Many new faith schools are part of the new free school programme for example, so clearly the parents must want them. What with religious freedoms being protected by the Human Rights Act, it's hard to so that we can shut all such schools down overnight without an uproar and a legal challenge that atheists would lose. Better to try and drive people away from the extremist stances of their faith and hope that in the long run this will lead to them growing away from their faith. This is already happening, slowly, in the Western world as a whole.

[naomi24]

Jim, //while implicitly Christianity was taken to be factual//

Which is basically what I said in the first place.

//you are wrong to say that this particular faith school was a centre of indoctrination, or some such.//

I didn’t say that and I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve asked you not to put words into my mouth. However, that happens to be a pretty good summation of faith schools. That’s exactly what they are.

[jim360]

You said "teach Christian doctrine" -- well, my point is that they didn't. That was for Sunday School. There was a Christian ethos, perhaps, but it was in the background and hardly dominated teaching. So this faith school was nothing like the sort of place that you are rightly criticising. I don't claim that the school is representative of faith schools -- merely that this particular one was hardly a danger to society, or divisive, or any of the criticisms levelled at it.

And I didn't put words into your mouth this time. I didn't say that you said that -- but other people have done. Note the lack of quotation marks.

[vetuste_ennemi]

My old grammar school (motto "Honor Deo") celebrated its RC founder's day at the local St. Mary's CoE church. Does that count as a faith school?

[naomi24]

Jim, // I think you are wrong to say that this particular faith school was a centre of indoctrination, or some such.//

Other people haven’t said it – you said it – quotation marks or not – and I didn’t imply that Christian doctrine dominated teaching at your school either - I simply doubted that Christian doctrine was absent – so there you go again!

VE, my grammar school carried a very similar motto, and Christianity was taught – but the Jewish contingent removed themselves from mainstream RE classes to study separately. I loved one of our maths teacher, who also taught RE. It was a very simple matter to distract him from maths - and veer him into discussions on the bible! ;o)

[Old_Geezer]

I'm not keen on faith schools, but I can see there is a different situation when in one area the groups have used religious differences in the past as part of the reason to be hostile towards each other, whilst in the other religious differences have been considered of little importance.

[vetuste_ennemi]

And, of course, we had morning assembly (from which the rare RC or rarer Jew would be excused). I think it was an excellent school. It's now a co-educational sixth form college, but don't get me going about that.
The point is not whether schools like this are divisive or teach drivel; they aren't and they don't. The schools we should object to are those being set up by the fundamentalists – the Christian ones because they [i will] teach drivel (although that’s only going to damage their own), and the Islamic ones which will spawn a few more enemies of civil society.

[naomi24]

VE, And they're what I'm talking about.

(If it wasn't for the motto, I could be forgiven for thinking that you and I attended the same school).

[modeller]

My main experience of how faith was taught in RC schools was when I observed lessons and I found that it was dripped in unobtrusively into most lessons. It was even used in PE with remarks like " Come on children let us use those wondrous muscles the lord God has given us." An innocent remark in itself but added to the throw away comments "Lord's marvels/works/ wonders " in geography and science and art etc. it all added up to mild brainashing. IMO.
I didn't find that in CofE or state schools. In fact in my last school the only religion was the single multi faith weekly RE lesson for the first two years of secondary education.
My grand daughter 7 goes to a rural C of E school ( historically most primary rural schools are ) but as far as I can tell religion is limited to a few bible stories and moral themes. It has a multi ethnic intake and my daughter was not asked about her or my grand daughter's faith.

However by all reports that is not the case in the 8 faith schools , faith is a major issue and the children do not readily socialise outside school. A large school is being built in my area and it has a very restricted intake. Non believers are not accepted at all.

[jim360]

There does seem to be something about CofE schools in terms of how relaxed about religion they are. At least, in my experience. You could walk on and most days not even know about the fact that it was a faith school.

And the other thing is that results tend to be higher in at least my old school than the national and local average. I would hesitate to put that entirely down to the religious element but it does raise some eyebrows.

[1ndex]

2 planned in our village with opposition and petitions drawn up. I think faith schools are easier for developers to get planning permission.

[naomi24]

I've recently been invited to two church services for primary school children attending a rural CofE school - and what I've seen hasn't impressed me one bit. The children were asked to write letters apologising for their misdemeanours, which were subsequently ceremoniously burnt on Ash Wednesday, and one four year old told me all about thorns being put ‘into Jesus' head’ by ‘bad men’, and him being 'hung on a cross until he was dead’ – which he said wasn’t ‘very nice’. He’s right. None of it is ‘very nice’. I simply fail to see how mangling little minds with non-existent guilt, and tales or torture and brutal death benefits any child. Someone here asked me yesterday if I ever get angry (or words to that effect). This makes me angry. The people who are teaching these children - and the parents who are allowing their offspring to be indoctrinated with this nonsense - should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves – but unfortunately, they are not.

[modeller]

I think the big change is that free schools whatever their ethos are now supported by the state. So they are springing up everywhere.

jim // I would hesitate to put that entirely down to the religious element but it does raise some eyebrows//
I would suggest it's not faith but having an ethos. That's one of the reasons the Grammar schools were so successful as opposed to the dead hand of egalitarianism in the Comprehensives.

[emmie]

many of these new schools are faith schools, so isn't that going to divide our children all the more. Don't teach it to children, any faith, let them get on with learning how to construct a sentence without saying innit. innit..

[jim360]

Those are primary schools, from the sounds of things -- and now if that's the sort of thing that is going on regularly we're wholeheartedly in agreement. Children younger than 11 are certainly far too young to be exposed to that sort of thing, whether or not it's nonsense. In the same way you shouldn't teach the bloody battles of the World Wars at that age. Never mind adding the guilt element "this is all our fault". Too young, too young...

[naomi24]

Jim, I agree – but at least history bears some semblance of verifiable fact, whereas religion….. just what are these people filling children’s minds with?

[emmie]

i remember watching a programme with Richard Dawkins, taking a bunch of school children to the seaside, and explaining to them the basis of evolution, the children were from varied religious backgrounds, ones which had taught them only that God or Allah was their saviour and that the adherence to these faiths were all important, science was not much considered, no balance at all, the children at least appreciated what he had to say, not sure the parents would have.

[Ric.ror]

people seem to want faith schools. I can't see why they shouldn't have them. I can't see why I should have to pay for them, either.

Well if you don't want to pay for them in faith schools will you want to pay for them in non faith schools

[vetuste_ennemi]

"(If it wasn't for the motto, I could be forgiven for thinking that you and I attended the same school).". Then one or other of us, I guess, would have had to be cross-dressing, Naomi.