Who was Jesus?

[naomi24]

Any idea?

[LazyGun]

I must admit, I thought "Jesus" to be an invention. I have read several articles which make the case for an invented man, mostly because there are no contemporaneous sources that mention Jesus.

Balance of probabilities for me suggest he was a myth.

As for the Turin Shroud - Last time I paid any attention to this was during the radio carbon dating of samples from the shroud, in 3 different and respected laboratories and all came back with a date of around 12-1300, which seems to indicate it is a fake. That seemed conclusive to me. :)

[Khandro]

There is evidence to show that the Turin shroud is contemporary with the time of Christ, but the Vatican (for one) has done everything it can to disprove this. Corpses do not exude sweat and blood, which is evident on the shroud, and would show survival from the cross, along with fibres of plants which definitely grew at that time in that place. Several samples have been taken for analysis and always it ends in being inclusive. The last time, the careers of the scientists involved all ended abruptly with them leaving lucrative posts to retire in secure wealth. I can give you facts on this, but not at this moment because I am going to watch 'Prisoners Wives'.

[Cetti]

Hello Naomi, How are you? Yours is the only name I recognise after being absent for so long. Cetti XX

[naomi24]

Cetti, I just saw your name on a post in Twitching & Birdwatching and left a message there for you. I'm fine, but how are you? I've left messages in Chatterbank at Christmas time in particular to ask how you are, but no response. I'm absolutely delighted to see you here again! I think of you often. :o)

[naomi24]

I've seen some pretty bizarre explanations for the image on the Turin Shroud, but since it seems no one is able to say how that negative image was created, the jury is still out on that one.

[birdie1971]

FredPuli43 - “... Tacitus also says that the Christians took their name from Christus, their leader, and that Christus was put to death in Judea , and he gives particulars of whose reign in that was and who ordered the death. Now, Tacitus would have been 7 at the time of the fire, so he grew up with the history of it. He was born in [AD] 56...”

Tacitus' account is of questionable veracity. He was born after Jesus' supposed death in approximately AD 36. Therefore, his brief words about Jesus are entirely second-hand at best and it is unlikely he would have bothered to check their accuracy as he regarded Christianity as a, “mischievous superstition”.

More importantly, the term 'Christian' was not in use at the time that Tacitus was writing his Annals. The early followers of Christ called themselves 'Brethren' and other things but never 'Christians'. In fact, it was well over a hundred years later (in the late first century) before the followers of Jesus were widely known as and called themselves 'Christians'.

It is for these reasons and others that Tacitus' account looks very much like it has been doctored by early Christians to support their belief in a literal Christ.

[owdhamer]

a money making tool forall the large dept stores

[naomi24]

//Tacitus' account looks very much like it has been doctored//

Same with Josephus.

[jackthehat]

I thought this was quite interesting.

http://shroud3d.com/

I don't think it answers 'who' it is.......but (with the usual caveats) it may confirm 'what it is'.

[maggiebee]

Not so much "was" but rather "is". He rose again and rules supreme - yesterday, today and tomorrow. End of.

[pillj123]

what a lot of different approaches....shows the mystery of our approaches

[naomi24]

Jack, thanks. That’s very interesting. Although, when we find inaccurate claims like this ….

//John of course is the best eyewitness because he was present at the Last Supper, the Crucifixion and the burial in the tomb on Friday afternoon, and on Sunday morning, together with Peter, he was also present in the tomb, after the Resurrection//

…we realise that the author has a very definite agenda, I will certainly read it all. It cannot confirm who the subject is, but it might throw some light on the Shroud’s origins. Fascinating stuff.

pillj, I’m sure there are more … but they haven’t surfaced yet.

[jomifl]

One of the many strange things about the Turin shroud it that the image is photographic, ie. appears to be an image perceived from a specific viewpoint. If as is conceivable the image was produce by contact with skin and was produced by chemical reactions between the cloth and sweat etc. then the image would be completely different. The only way this image could have been produced is by NOT contacting the body. Having looked at images of the whole shroud on other websites it appears to be an image of a person dressed in mediaeval armour, which agrees with some of the (allegedly erroneous) ages indicated by carbon dating.
Another possibility is that the image was on the shroud before it was (if) used to wrap Jesus.
There appear to be two images on the shroud, front and back views of a mediaeval knight touching at the top of the head. This could not have been produced by wrapping the body however it was done. My impression is that the shroud was a mediaeval hanging designed to be draped over a pole so that the front and rear images of a knight coincided with the head at the top.

[jackthehat]

Is it only me who gets supremely riled by the use of *End of* at the conclusion of a personal unproven opinion?

[beso]

FredPuli43 //Anyway, it seems reasonable to think that the existence of 'Christians' does rather suggest that there was a human from whom they took the name. Why else would they be calling themselves Christians in 61 AD ? //

So the existence ot Trekkies mans that The Enterprise, Captain Kirk and Mr Spock were also real?

[maggiebee]

JTH I put "end of" because I have nothing further to add to the discussion. I appreciate there are many different viewpoints, this just happens to be mine.

[beso]

naomi // ... more likely to have been influenced by Mithras,//

I think the Jesus myth was influenced by many earlier models but Horus is quite close in pronunciation to Jesus in many languages.

"A Brahmin" is very close to "Abraham" (or "Abhram" if you care for the details of some of the myths).

Then there is "Arknoa" and "Noah's Ark".

The religious stories are nothing more than a jumble of Chinese Whispers dating from the earliest beginnings of language.

[jomifl]

jth, I get the impression that 'end of' means 'end of discussion' although why anybody would be interested in an opinion that isn't open to discussion is beyond my comprehension. Only opinions that can be justified by argument and evidence really have any value, otherwise we coud all go around spouting unjustifiable opinions about everything, listen to no-one and get nowhere.

[jackthehat]

I agree, jomifl. End of.




:o)

[Khandro]

//One of the many strange things about the Turin shroud it that the image is photographic, ie. appears to be an image perceived from a specific viewpoint// I think that the image is constructed not from a 'specific viewpoint' but from many, it is not at all "Holographic", and Petrus Soons wants to sell some of his prints to you. You can produce such a result with any portrait by panning the camera left to right and taking, as he says he did, 625 photographs and editing them together in sequence. Regarding the actual image on the shroud; as I said earlier, there is no doubt that it has been doctored to appear like a portrait, but this doesn't invalidate the shroud from being originally authentic.