Islam & Terrorism

[birdie1971]

I've heard it said that the reason we in the west are experiencing Islamic terrorism is because of the west's meddling in the Middle East – the removal of Saddam Hussein and Muammar Gaddafi being prime examples. The removal of these dictators has fueled this rise in Islamist factions in those countries and hence the rise of Islamic terrism worldwide. At least, that is what 'they' say.

Jermy Corbin said as much in a speech just the other day. On the surface it all sounds quite plausible. That is until you start to think about it in any depth.

If the west's meddeling in the Middle East is the cause of such artrocities in the west such as the appaling attack in my own city – Manchester – then I have a few questions:

1. Why has Australia been subjected to Islamic terror?
2. Why has Bali (in the muslim country of Indonesia) been subjected to Islamic terror?
3. Why have the Philippines been subjected to Islamic terror?
4. Why were 20+ coptic Christians murdered in Egypt by Islamists this week?

I could go on and on and on with further examples of Islamic terrosism that has nothing whatsoever to do with the Middle East. Suffice to say that Islamic terrorism is not about the politics of the Middle East. That's just a convenient excuse made by apologists who don't want to or simply don't understand Koranic scipture.

[sevenOP]

"That is until you start to think about it in any depth."

Then maybe you should apply your own rhetoric to yourself, birdie.

The clock started long ago, try taking a critical look at History, not when, as usual, it suits many contributors to this Forum.

Seeds long sown of all sorts have manifest, and problems that have still to germinate, having been sown hundreds- if not thousands of years ago.

Just because the blowback doesn't fit your narrow, blinkered, expectations show the lack of depth of your football pitch.{goalposts, parameters, conditioning}

Do you know the history of the Philippines ? American stolen and USED.
or
Australia? - 'five eyes' /American poodles

Egypt? Muslim Brotherhood, British meddling... or how it was finally bought off to make 'peace' with the Jewish state.

Indonesia? Sukarno/Suharto ... American meddling again with the devious Kissinger as lynchpin

If you are looking for "depth", try cutting your own chains, or, if you just want a laugh, watch some of the blatant, UNreported, irony of Trump's major policy shift in the land of the Wahhabi hate exporters last week.

[vetuste_ennemi]

//try taking a critical look at History //

Good advice.

The history of Islam begins in the year 623 AD, SevenOP, when Mohammed, in order to escape persecution, migrated from Mecca to Medina and was welcomed by the Jews and Christians there.

Do you know what happened to the Jews of Medina in the following years? Do you know what happened to the religiously tolerant Meccans less than ten years later when Mohammed returned to his former home?

[Togo]

Touché V.E.

[sevenOP]

Not having witnessed it myself vetuste_ennemi, as you, I can only go by the 'story' fed to us. [His -story, whoever the dominant His is]

[Togo]

Then you must conveniently ignore what you cannot answer in a rational fashion 7 OP. Lesson being, be careful of who you grant succour to.

[sevenOP]

That is an example of why you are unlikely to get 'depth' on this forum: pedants, partisan, point scorers and gloaters.

Probably beyond you Togo, but the relevance of 'V.E.''s post to mine read non sequitur .

[vetuste_ennemi]

I don't understand the point you're making, SevenOP.

Are you saying my references to history (unlike yours) are selective and uncritical?



ere's a sneer in it. I hope not.

[sevenOP]

"Are you saying my references to history (unlike yours) are selective and uncritical?"

No.

And no sneer intended.

Many partisans are embedded in this forum, and an honest attempt to edify them, however tiresome, is another 'white man's burden'. [ ;- }

Togo is anutter matter.

[maggiebee]

Good grief, this post is like reading War and Peace - couldn't finish that either.

[birdie1971]

Buenchico - “... >>> Why has Bali (in the muslim country of Indonesia) been subjected to Islamic terror? Perhaps because extremists see 'not being Muslim enough' as at least as bad as, or worse than, being 'Crusaders' (as ISIS often refer to Western countries in their statements)?
[i.e. moderate Muslims, who don't conform to the strictest interpretations of Sharia Law, are viewed as 'infidels']...”

Which just goes to prove that Jermy Corbin and others who say that Islamic terrorism in the West is down to the West meddling in Middle Eastern affairs is complete and utter tosh. You are absolutely correct in your assertion that I have quoted above.

ISIS and other fanatical Islamic extremists use the excuse that the West is interfering in Middle Eastern countries as a way to pathetically justify murdering innocent civilians in foreign nations – regardless of said nation's involvement in the Middle East. Their claims are completely bogus as are their cowardly actions. Their real goal is as stated in black and white in the Koran – to bring the entire planet under the control of Islam through the mechanisms of terror and subsequent capitulation by non-Muslims.

[birdie1971]

SevenOP - “... Then maybe you should apply your own rhetoric to yourself, birdie...”

Maybe you could expand on some of the issues you raised.

To reiterate, my question is quite simple. Is the dramatic rise in Islamic terrorism around the world directly caused by the West's meddling in the Middle East? And if not, what explains it?

[birdie1971]

Bigbad

Great succinct answer.

[birdie1971]

fender62

Thanks for the quoted references.
I know. You know. Many know. But not enough know.

I have two copies of the Koran. One is 'as published' and one has been put into chronological order. The former is an incoherent mess with the reader not knowing what on earth is going on as the verses are organised with the longer ones first and the shorter ones following. A person cannot 'read' the Koran in its originally published format and truly understand it as the chronological sequence is all over the place. The only way to fully understand the Koran is when it is organised in a chronological sequence. Then the message contained within becomes clear and the concept of Islamic abrogation takes centre stage, leaving the reader in no doubt as to what the aims of Islam are.

[tamborine]

'Meddling in ME?' More like retribution for 9/11 & 7/7.

Corbyn and ilk are subjected to taqiyya.

[mikey4444]

Its my personal opinion that removing Saddam was a very good thing....ditto with Gaddafi. Both extremely nasty, blood-thirsty dictators. I shed no tears for them whatsoever.

But that is not to say that the aftermath couldn't have been handled better....it should have been.

But there was always going to be the rise of militant Islam to cope with. Its been on the simmer for many years, and I don't think that the removal of dictators really changed anything much.

Part of the answer to the current problem lies with places like Saudi Arabia and other wealthy Muslim countries. They should be condemning all the terrorist attacks a lot more that they are doing.

[mibn2cweus]

If you really want to know what lies at the very root of 'Islam & Terrorism' you need to look much further back than the 7th century.

Once upon a time people started believing in a god, some kind of divine overseer of reality. From there it took no great leap of logic to believe claims regarding "what god wants". The rest of history was and continues to be stained in the consequences of subscribing to such irrational beliefs.

Humanity developed as a species by virtue of reason and our continued survival and well-being are subject to our adherence to and refusal to depart from reason, as history and current events clearly demonstrate.

[sevenOP]

"Maybe you could expand on some of the issues you raised. "

http://johnhelmer.net/the-presidents-inferiority-complex-his-advisors-russia-hating-obsession-and-the-putsch-plotter-with-the-itchy-trigger-finger/#more-17641

[Khandro]

Birdie; I think this attempts define the problem and is someone trying to suggest a possible way towards a solution, have you read it and what is your professional opinion?

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/10263/grooming-jihadists

[TWR]

Am I right in saying the Paris, London, Manchester, Frankfurt, Madrid, Australia, + a few other places that got blown up was nothing to do with Muslim Terrorists? or are the news reports wrong?

[Khandro]

mibn; //If you really want to know what lies at the very root of 'Islam & Terrorism' you need to look much further back than the 7th century.//

That seems to be a very confused assertion; Islamic terrorism began with Islam from the very start, and from nowhere else. The main previous western religions were Judaism and Christianity. Jesus taught that we should love our neighbour as we love ourselves - a tough assignment - a big ask, but one completely different from Islam's directive to slaughter anyone (including other Muslims) who believe in anything different.

Before that Buddhism taught of a path of practice and spiritual development leading to Insight into the true nature of reality, and before that, Judaism's basic tenet was always a belief in God as the creator of all things, neither of which had anything to do with the violence, death and destruction we are witnessing today from radical Islam.