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Ched Evans, Is He A Victim Here, Too?
I wouldn't have thought so, but others seem to think differently.
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/but then in a sense that people watch football at all is a "secondary" part of it. There could be no live audience at all and he could still play games, etc./
You're right. It is the TV audience (and so the sponsors and advertisers) that pays for football
but aren't they paying to 'watch football' just the same - but 'remotely'
If a TV audience shows 'distaste' for a certain player being included it will have the same effect as crowds boycotting a stadium.
You're right. It is the TV audience (and so the sponsors and advertisers) that pays for football
but aren't they paying to 'watch football' just the same - but 'remotely'
If a TV audience shows 'distaste' for a certain player being included it will have the same effect as crowds boycotting a stadium.
True, but then it would be a bad business decision to employ him and, again, that's up to the football club. There is no sense in which he should be barred perforce from playing football professionally. The paying public may find it distasteful, and sponsors may flee, in which case the club in question would soon feel obliged to sack him; indeed, if they feel this is a risk they might not hire him at all. But it remains entirely their decision and not one we can or should make for them.
The problem with your argument jim is that clubs actively encourage the public to be part of them. That is why you get pub conversations along the lines of 'We did this' or 'We will go all the way...'
So the public very much has a say. No public no football club. Dress it how you like but that is the reality.
So the public very much has a say. No public no football club. Dress it how you like but that is the reality.
There is violence and there is rape.....two different crimes....
Remove the violence and tell me there are different degrees of being raped.
Had the man who made me his victim got the justice he deserved I wouldn't have wanted him to return to live next door....
Because he was sent to prison where he had lived before he had to move from his friends and some of his family and was never able to go back...that didn't make him a victim.
Remove the violence and tell me there are different degrees of being raped.
Had the man who made me his victim got the justice he deserved I wouldn't have wanted him to return to live next door....
Because he was sent to prison where he had lived before he had to move from his friends and some of his family and was never able to go back...that didn't make him a victim.
Ah, OK, Jim, I thought you meant "barred" in the sense that nobody would employ him ... not literally prevented by law from returning to his job (although there may be certain community elements to his job that he would be prevented by law from returning to).
In practice I believe he is barred, as I think it would be a very poor business decision to employ him. Time will tell, though ...
In practice I believe he is barred, as I think it would be a very poor business decision to employ him. Time will tell, though ...
Let's not forget, he is not free yet. He is free of prison for the moment but he is on parole and conditions on his release can be applied, even sent back. For that, he should not play or be under contract, as he is still serving his sentence out.
If he is innocent, then that will be decided in court - if he can provide a strong enough case to convince the sitting judge. Until that point, he is 'guilty' and nothing should change. If he is decided as being innocent, then he has a strong case for compensation against the court - and for loss of earnings.
If he is innocent, then that will be decided in court - if he can provide a strong enough case to convince the sitting judge. Until that point, he is 'guilty' and nothing should change. If he is decided as being innocent, then he has a strong case for compensation against the court - and for loss of earnings.
The point is Gness that the case divebuddy referred to as being 'worse' than Ched Evan's crime and that prompted your 'there are no degrees of rape'
did involve physical force, threats of violence and several other unsavoury aspects not occuring in the Evans allegations.
/The sex attack happened after the victim was confronted by the two girls in a park in Willesden, north-west London in April.
The victim was forced into an alleyway and made to perform a sex act on Lacquan Weekes, while a group of youths watched nearby./
So you think that is no worse than trying it on with somebody, finding they are too drunk to respond and having non-consensual sex with them anyway?
did involve physical force, threats of violence and several other unsavoury aspects not occuring in the Evans allegations.
/The sex attack happened after the victim was confronted by the two girls in a park in Willesden, north-west London in April.
The victim was forced into an alleyway and made to perform a sex act on Lacquan Weekes, while a group of youths watched nearby./
So you think that is no worse than trying it on with somebody, finding they are too drunk to respond and having non-consensual sex with them anyway?
As someone who spent two days across three threads debating this issue a few weeks ago, I would prefer not to get into the issues regarding the case itself, and the convicted individual, and the people involved.
But to address the issue - is Ched Evans a 'victim" too?
The Irish FA spokesman says this -
"But there is surely nothing worse than being accused of a crime which you genuinely believe you didn't commit,"
Indeed - but what convicted individual - apart from those who freely admit their guilt - could not be said to believe they had not done wrong?
"All I ever tried to do was to give people a good time ..."
That was said by Al Capone.
It is human nature to excuse ourselves from our wrongdoing - to do otherwise involves facing up to the nasty truth that we have behaved appallingly and dserve to be punished.
So for the FA spokesman to be bandying coparisons with miscrarriages of justice is somewhat inappropriate - that case could be made for every convicted felon anywhere, ever.
But to address the issue - is Ched Evans a 'victim" too?
The Irish FA spokesman says this -
"But there is surely nothing worse than being accused of a crime which you genuinely believe you didn't commit,"
Indeed - but what convicted individual - apart from those who freely admit their guilt - could not be said to believe they had not done wrong?
"All I ever tried to do was to give people a good time ..."
That was said by Al Capone.
It is human nature to excuse ourselves from our wrongdoing - to do otherwise involves facing up to the nasty truth that we have behaved appallingly and dserve to be punished.
So for the FA spokesman to be bandying coparisons with miscrarriages of justice is somewhat inappropriate - that case could be made for every convicted felon anywhere, ever.
For clarification, I quote from the BBC News site, five days ago....
Rapists in England and Wales usually serve half their sentence in prison, and the rest under licence in the community. Once out they will have to meet licence conditions, says Christopher Stacey, director at Unlock, a charity that works with people who have criminal convictions.
They will have regular meetings with the probation service. If they want to return to work or leave the country, they will need the permission of their probation officer. Special conditions can apply - they may be banned from certain places and people.
Continue reading the main story
“
Start Quote
Why should we deny a footballer a return to employment if we would not deny a plumber?”
Matthew Syed, columnist
Any sex offender punished with a two-and-a-half year jail sentence also goes on the Sex Offenders Register. They remain on there "for life", although it can be reviewed after 15 years. Being on the register means that people have to report to the police every year giving information about foreign travel, bank details and if they have a person under 18 in the house.
The general principle of rehabilitation in England and Wales is that after a set period of time, a previous prison sentence is "spent" and does not need to be revealed and it is illegal for employers to rule someone out on this basis.
But a sentence of more than four years is never spent - and Evans was sentenced to five years.
And certain offences, including rape, prevent people from doing particular jobs known as "regulated activity", says Stacey. The jobs include teacher, social worker, many in the NHS - all posts that involve working with children or vulnerable adults."
Rapists in England and Wales usually serve half their sentence in prison, and the rest under licence in the community. Once out they will have to meet licence conditions, says Christopher Stacey, director at Unlock, a charity that works with people who have criminal convictions.
They will have regular meetings with the probation service. If they want to return to work or leave the country, they will need the permission of their probation officer. Special conditions can apply - they may be banned from certain places and people.
Continue reading the main story
“
Start Quote
Why should we deny a footballer a return to employment if we would not deny a plumber?”
Matthew Syed, columnist
Any sex offender punished with a two-and-a-half year jail sentence also goes on the Sex Offenders Register. They remain on there "for life", although it can be reviewed after 15 years. Being on the register means that people have to report to the police every year giving information about foreign travel, bank details and if they have a person under 18 in the house.
The general principle of rehabilitation in England and Wales is that after a set period of time, a previous prison sentence is "spent" and does not need to be revealed and it is illegal for employers to rule someone out on this basis.
But a sentence of more than four years is never spent - and Evans was sentenced to five years.
And certain offences, including rape, prevent people from doing particular jobs known as "regulated activity", says Stacey. The jobs include teacher, social worker, many in the NHS - all posts that involve working with children or vulnerable adults."
-- answer removed --
He's not saying he believes he didn't do wrong, or that he believes he didn't behave appallingly - actually I don't know if he is or not, he may well be, but that's kind of irrelevant.
The key thing he's saying is that he believes he didn't break the law . IE he has been convicted of a crime that he did not commit.
The key thing he's saying is that he believes he didn't break the law . IE he has been convicted of a crime that he did not commit.
I disagree with you on this, Zacs.
(i) his sentence is still 'live' (as above)
(ii) rape is rape and he's on the sex register for life (unless found ng on appeal and then he can sue for wrongful arrest and all the rest)
(iii) as a pro footballer, he's supposed to be a role model for youngsters and be involved in all the PR aspects of youth - which would conflict with the terms of his probation and the sex register. No way should he be allowed to become a youngster's icon.
(i) his sentence is still 'live' (as above)
(ii) rape is rape and he's on the sex register for life (unless found ng on appeal and then he can sue for wrongful arrest and all the rest)
(iii) as a pro footballer, he's supposed to be a role model for youngsters and be involved in all the PR aspects of youth - which would conflict with the terms of his probation and the sex register. No way should he be allowed to become a youngster's icon.
Zacs-Master - "think Evans should be allowed, in theory, to play football again just not at Sheff Utd. As to whether any club of any merit will be prepared to take him on after the growing furore, I'm not sure."
That is the dilemma here.
As someone who always tries to see both sides in any argument, and who passionately defends the detached dispassionate operation of the law, I am never immune to the human emotion that surrounds situations like this one.
Do i think Ched Evans should be allowed to play football? Yes.
Would I be happy if my local Premier League club signed him? No.
In society, the loegal rights of a convicted individal to ply his trade in society are always going to conflict with the moral discomfort of that society in being directly involved with his doing so.
That is the dilemma here.
As someone who always tries to see both sides in any argument, and who passionately defends the detached dispassionate operation of the law, I am never immune to the human emotion that surrounds situations like this one.
Do i think Ched Evans should be allowed to play football? Yes.
Would I be happy if my local Premier League club signed him? No.
In society, the loegal rights of a convicted individal to ply his trade in society are always going to conflict with the moral discomfort of that society in being directly involved with his doing so.
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