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ChatterBank0 min ago
I Know We've Done This To Death, But...
149 Answers
... why does the sheer number of racists/homophobes/whatever in UKIP simply not bother people?
The usual response is that "all parties have bad eggs that we don't hear about." But
a) UKIP are significantly worse offenders
b) UKIP do not seem to care about their unsavoury members. Every time there's a platitude about how the problem will be solved, or how the party is taking quick and effective action - but then it transpires that the person has been behaving in such a way for a very long time, and earned no response.
Why do the same empty excuses always prove so effective? Does this really not bother people? Is nobody concerned that they may have just elected one of UKIP's legion of bad eggs to public office?
The usual response is that "all parties have bad eggs that we don't hear about." But
a) UKIP are significantly worse offenders
b) UKIP do not seem to care about their unsavoury members. Every time there's a platitude about how the problem will be solved, or how the party is taking quick and effective action - but then it transpires that the person has been behaving in such a way for a very long time, and earned no response.
Why do the same empty excuses always prove so effective? Does this really not bother people? Is nobody concerned that they may have just elected one of UKIP's legion of bad eggs to public office?
Answers
I think you are still missing the point. I'm reminded of all these people who, on expressing their views and getting criticised, throw out the "I'm entitled to my opinion" defence. Well yes, they are, and no-one ever disputed that. But then I am equally entitled to mine, an opinion which sees yours as backward or bigoted or whatever, and there is no reason why I...
13:50 Mon 26th May 2014
AOG
You wrote:
"Isn't it gays themselves who can't stop themselves from taking about it, I am sure it doesn't cross heterosexuals minds unless the subject is once again brought to their attention?"
How else do we get to a place where we have equal rights without talking openly about mistreatment and bigotry?
The UK leads the world in respect for gay people.
It's a stunning leap from a time when gay people were jailed, thrown out of their homes etc.
Whilst it's true that there are still homophobic attacks, which are no less cowardly than those carried out by persons from your generation, the good news is that younger people are far more accepting than those who grew up in another era.
I doubt that very many of the younger generation would tolerate the idea of gay men being chemically castrated by the state...something that appears appalling now...
I suppose it's true...the past really WAS a a foreign country, and they certainly did things 'differently' there.
You wrote:
"Isn't it gays themselves who can't stop themselves from taking about it, I am sure it doesn't cross heterosexuals minds unless the subject is once again brought to their attention?"
How else do we get to a place where we have equal rights without talking openly about mistreatment and bigotry?
The UK leads the world in respect for gay people.
It's a stunning leap from a time when gay people were jailed, thrown out of their homes etc.
Whilst it's true that there are still homophobic attacks, which are no less cowardly than those carried out by persons from your generation, the good news is that younger people are far more accepting than those who grew up in another era.
I doubt that very many of the younger generation would tolerate the idea of gay men being chemically castrated by the state...something that appears appalling now...
I suppose it's true...the past really WAS a a foreign country, and they certainly did things 'differently' there.
Brenden
Thanks - but I have.
Do you think that I should stop 'harping on'?
Should I remain silent?
Let me give you an analogy.
I don't know if you have any children, but say if you had a daughter who came home from work one day, and told you that a colleague of hers had:
"Women have no right to be in the workplace because they are taking jobs away from men. Furthermore, why should they get equal pay to men? Men are breadwinners, whereas woman are there for pin money".
Okay - now what would you say to your (hypothetical) daughter?
If she brought up the subject, would you say:
"Considering women have more rights in this country than most Muslim countries, where women aren't even allowed out on their own. Please stop harping upon those who wish you no harm but have a difference of opinion to you and consider women in the workplace unacceptable."
Do you see my point?
If you don't, then no worries. I understand that you have a point of view that's different from mine. I think that you're being a little 'closed off', but my opinion is moot, because I don't know what your imp use drivers are.
Suffice to say, I don't think that people should be afraid or constrained from responding to those with whom they disagree.
I hope that you feel the same.
In the same way that you are free to voice your opinion, surely so am I?
Without being told not to 'harp on'?
Thanks - but I have.
Do you think that I should stop 'harping on'?
Should I remain silent?
Let me give you an analogy.
I don't know if you have any children, but say if you had a daughter who came home from work one day, and told you that a colleague of hers had:
"Women have no right to be in the workplace because they are taking jobs away from men. Furthermore, why should they get equal pay to men? Men are breadwinners, whereas woman are there for pin money".
Okay - now what would you say to your (hypothetical) daughter?
If she brought up the subject, would you say:
"Considering women have more rights in this country than most Muslim countries, where women aren't even allowed out on their own. Please stop harping upon those who wish you no harm but have a difference of opinion to you and consider women in the workplace unacceptable."
Do you see my point?
If you don't, then no worries. I understand that you have a point of view that's different from mine. I think that you're being a little 'closed off', but my opinion is moot, because I don't know what your imp use drivers are.
Suffice to say, I don't think that people should be afraid or constrained from responding to those with whom they disagree.
I hope that you feel the same.
In the same way that you are free to voice your opinion, surely so am I?
Without being told not to 'harp on'?
sp,
As it stands, you have more to fear from the Islamic Republic of Tower Hamlets than you do from UKUIP.
http://
Yes, as pointed out by NJ UKIP have the odd nutter who is opposed to gays. They will fall by the way side as the party progresses. In the 21st century, any serious political party will have to toe the line in respect of gay rights etc if they wish to be taken seriously. UKIP have made a start in the the political sphere. As their ranks swell they will be joined by many who have a liberal view to homosexuality(which will be a peripheral issue) and they'll concentrate on the real issues the electorate want addressing, that being the EU and immigration.
Relax!
As it stands, you have more to fear from the Islamic Republic of Tower Hamlets than you do from UKUIP.
http://
Yes, as pointed out by NJ UKIP have the odd nutter who is opposed to gays. They will fall by the way side as the party progresses. In the 21st century, any serious political party will have to toe the line in respect of gay rights etc if they wish to be taken seriously. UKIP have made a start in the the political sphere. As their ranks swell they will be joined by many who have a liberal view to homosexuality(which will be a peripheral issue) and they'll concentrate on the real issues the electorate want addressing, that being the EU and immigration.
Relax!
"The harping on" I am referring to sp. is your attitude towards the older generation who disagree with you on the subject of gay rights. Of course you are entitled to free speech, you know I am quite an advocate of it, no one should be gagged, but in the same breath people who disagree with your views should not be labelled bigots or racists. You know very well as I have told you before I was pleased when gay rights were able to have their civil partnerships - but - I cannot accept marriage - for me that is a man and woman union - and on this point is where we differ, but I respect your views and I know you respect mine.
Chilldoubt
Oh, don't worry. I am a volunteer at a gay advocacy group who have met with Muslim leaders in Tower Hamlets.
I don't want to sound like I've saddled up my high horse for a canter around the paddock, but I find it appalling when people don't stand up for what they believe.
On AB, I often see complaints, but rarely see action. I find homophobia unacceptable wherever it comes from...which is why that particular story made me stand up.
So thanks...but don't worry...!
Oh, don't worry. I am a volunteer at a gay advocacy group who have met with Muslim leaders in Tower Hamlets.
I don't want to sound like I've saddled up my high horse for a canter around the paddock, but I find it appalling when people don't stand up for what they believe.
On AB, I often see complaints, but rarely see action. I find homophobia unacceptable wherever it comes from...which is why that particular story made me stand up.
So thanks...but don't worry...!
Brenden
I think the thing that you and I disagree on is that simply - some people hate gay people.
Some people are bigots.
Not all people who are anti-gay or who have conservative attitudes to gay people are bigots, but some are.
To label all people who have conservative feelings towards homosexuality as bigots is wrong.
But when someone proffers the idea that "if we shot a pootfer, would the 99 poofs standing behind him reconsider their sexuality" then we should be free to respond critically.
I think that's only fair.
I think the thing that you and I disagree on is that simply - some people hate gay people.
Some people are bigots.
Not all people who are anti-gay or who have conservative attitudes to gay people are bigots, but some are.
To label all people who have conservative feelings towards homosexuality as bigots is wrong.
But when someone proffers the idea that "if we shot a pootfer, would the 99 poofs standing behind him reconsider their sexuality" then we should be free to respond critically.
I think that's only fair.
Exuse me...I am one of the 'older voter's' and may I say that I am not homophobic at all and most of the people I know aren't either. That would not stop me voting Ukip. The main reason for voting for them would be because of the EU and immigration. Ukip are the party that has listened to the electorate and have stood up for it's views, not racist or homophobic, just a party of people who wants to have the country's identity back, our own laws and rights to stem the flow and rid ourselves of unwanted immigrants. The polls have shown that so far, and if it continues to straighten itself out the next election will be interesting.
askyourgran
I think it's a little charitable to suggest that is all UKIP stands for. It's a bit like saying that because I know only moderate Labour supporters that the whole party (the voters and party bigwigs) have exactly the same outlook and beliefs as me.
I do not doubt for a single moment that UKIP presents itself as an inclusive party, and that might be the problem...some of those who it includes have views which others find abhorrent.
You could say this about the Conservatives, Labour and Liberal parties, as well as the BNP and Greens.
I support the general principles of the Labour Party, and some party members have views which I think are basically idiotic.
I have yet to hear a UKIP supporter come out and say the same thing about their fellow members who propose the idea of "shooting a poofter to see whether the rest of them would change their sexuality".
I think it's a little charitable to suggest that is all UKIP stands for. It's a bit like saying that because I know only moderate Labour supporters that the whole party (the voters and party bigwigs) have exactly the same outlook and beliefs as me.
I do not doubt for a single moment that UKIP presents itself as an inclusive party, and that might be the problem...some of those who it includes have views which others find abhorrent.
You could say this about the Conservatives, Labour and Liberal parties, as well as the BNP and Greens.
I support the general principles of the Labour Party, and some party members have views which I think are basically idiotic.
I have yet to hear a UKIP supporter come out and say the same thing about their fellow members who propose the idea of "shooting a poofter to see whether the rest of them would change their sexuality".
askyourgran
It's fantastic to hear that you have surrounded yourself with a group of older people who are open and who don't support the marginalisation of gay people. Of course, there are bound to be a significant number of people like this, but unfortunately because they hold moderate views they tend to be drowned out by the...ahem...more 'conservative' advocates.
Also, it should be remembered, for every older person who was happy to see gay people jailed in the early part of the last century, there must've been others who found this abhorrent.
Otherwise, the 1967 act would've seen widespread protests.
I don't think enough credit was given to those people.
It's fantastic to hear that you have surrounded yourself with a group of older people who are open and who don't support the marginalisation of gay people. Of course, there are bound to be a significant number of people like this, but unfortunately because they hold moderate views they tend to be drowned out by the...ahem...more 'conservative' advocates.
Also, it should be remembered, for every older person who was happy to see gay people jailed in the early part of the last century, there must've been others who found this abhorrent.
Otherwise, the 1967 act would've seen widespread protests.
I don't think enough credit was given to those people.
Orderlimit
To be honest, I've not actually seen any Twitter or Facebook posts from Labour councillor calling gay parents child abusers, or referring to gay people as perverts. I'm also not aware of any Labour Party councillor claiming that gay people aren't worthy of equal respect.
I theorise that left wingers have different hate figures, maybe?
Don't you think that it's more likely for 'lefties' to post comments on social media decrying city fat cats, climate change deniers and EDL/BNP/UKIP?
Rather than gay people?
Is it nog reasonable to conclude that those of opposite political and social persuasions have different hate figures?
To be honest, I've not actually seen any Twitter or Facebook posts from Labour councillor calling gay parents child abusers, or referring to gay people as perverts. I'm also not aware of any Labour Party councillor claiming that gay people aren't worthy of equal respect.
I theorise that left wingers have different hate figures, maybe?
Don't you think that it's more likely for 'lefties' to post comments on social media decrying city fat cats, climate change deniers and EDL/BNP/UKIP?
Rather than gay people?
Is it nog reasonable to conclude that those of opposite political and social persuasions have different hate figures?
I'm sure if you searched labour - homophobic - tweets, you will find examples of the discrimination you describe.
"I theorise that left wingers have different hate figures, maybe? ". Don't know but they certainly seem to have different definitions of what hate incidents are and who can be accused of it.
"I theorise that left wingers have different hate figures, maybe? ". Don't know but they certainly seem to have different definitions of what hate incidents are and who can be accused of it.
sp, //Oh, don't worry. I am a volunteer at a gay advocacy group who have met with Muslim leaders in Tower Hamlets.//
I seem to recall you saying some days ago that you weren’t at all familiar with Tower Hamlets, so I assume the meetings you’ve had with these Muslims leaders were held elsewhere – although I doubt it. I say again, I think you are between the devil and the deep blue sea. You criticise any critic of gays except immigrants who criticise gays because there the ethnic minorities issue kicks in and your loyalties between your two pet concerns – homosexuality and colour - are open to compromise. Chilldoubt is absolutely right. You have far more to fear from fundamentalist Islam than you have from Ukip. Shame you refuse to acknowledge it. I think you need to decide where your loyalties really lie.
I seem to recall you saying some days ago that you weren’t at all familiar with Tower Hamlets, so I assume the meetings you’ve had with these Muslims leaders were held elsewhere – although I doubt it. I say again, I think you are between the devil and the deep blue sea. You criticise any critic of gays except immigrants who criticise gays because there the ethnic minorities issue kicks in and your loyalties between your two pet concerns – homosexuality and colour - are open to compromise. Chilldoubt is absolutely right. You have far more to fear from fundamentalist Islam than you have from Ukip. Shame you refuse to acknowledge it. I think you need to decide where your loyalties really lie.
naomi24
Absolutely true.
I know almost nothing about Tower Hamlets, although I have met with some Muslim community leaders from there (we didn't actually meet in TH in case I have confused matters).
I suggest that the fact that I have actually done something with regards to Islam and homophobia, that I am in a fairly strong position to be able to criticise.
I can understand that some on AB go as far as bashing their keyboards without getting off their bums and doing something tangible, because let's be honest - doing is much harder than talking (or typing).
I can totally understand your complete ignorance about who I am, because you're only seeing a small percentage of me (I would say that you're getting about 3%).
All you see are posts on AB.
You wouldn't know what I've been involved in, nor the person I know who was killed in a gay-hate attack in the late 90s, or use lengthy and fraught arguments I have had with white knuckle draggers, West Indian homophobes and Islamic fundamentalist morons , but that's not your fault. You are reacting to the 3% you see.
I would not presume to summarise you, but then again, I have no idea who the person behind naomi24 is. All I am aware of is the cypher you use.
One last thing...when me and my mates ventured back into Soho after the nail bomb attack, it really wasn't Muslims we had on our minds.
I think that's quite an important point.
Absolutely true.
I know almost nothing about Tower Hamlets, although I have met with some Muslim community leaders from there (we didn't actually meet in TH in case I have confused matters).
I suggest that the fact that I have actually done something with regards to Islam and homophobia, that I am in a fairly strong position to be able to criticise.
I can understand that some on AB go as far as bashing their keyboards without getting off their bums and doing something tangible, because let's be honest - doing is much harder than talking (or typing).
I can totally understand your complete ignorance about who I am, because you're only seeing a small percentage of me (I would say that you're getting about 3%).
All you see are posts on AB.
You wouldn't know what I've been involved in, nor the person I know who was killed in a gay-hate attack in the late 90s, or use lengthy and fraught arguments I have had with white knuckle draggers, West Indian homophobes and Islamic fundamentalist morons , but that's not your fault. You are reacting to the 3% you see.
I would not presume to summarise you, but then again, I have no idea who the person behind naomi24 is. All I am aware of is the cypher you use.
One last thing...when me and my mates ventured back into Soho after the nail bomb attack, it really wasn't Muslims we had on our minds.
I think that's quite an important point.
With respect krom your incredulity at the popularity of UKIP is the same as Cameron's, Clegg's and Miliband's. You seem to think that if you just keep pointing out enough times what idiots and racists they are then everyone will at some point go ..'oh yeah, I get it now - how could I have been so stupid?'
For whatever reason that hasn't happened. That's democracy, but I stick to my prediction about their prospects at the general election.
For whatever reason that hasn't happened. That's democracy, but I stick to my prediction about their prospects at the general election.
By the way, please please please try not to write things lie this:
"You criticise any critic of gays except immigrants who criticise gays because there the ethnic minorities issue kicks in and your loyalties between your two pet concerns"
It irritates me slightly when people lie about me.
Well, not about me per se - because I'm not sp1814.
But it's vaguely annoying when people make stuff up to prove a point.
The person who said that gay adoptive parents are basically child abusers. He is black.
The Christian registrar who refused to carry out CP ceremonies (whom I criticised quite strongly) was black.
So please try not to misrepresent me.
It's really unfair.
There...I said that without getting annoyed!
Back to Britain's Got Talent for me!
(not sure is that's a treat or a punishment).
"You criticise any critic of gays except immigrants who criticise gays because there the ethnic minorities issue kicks in and your loyalties between your two pet concerns"
It irritates me slightly when people lie about me.
Well, not about me per se - because I'm not sp1814.
But it's vaguely annoying when people make stuff up to prove a point.
The person who said that gay adoptive parents are basically child abusers. He is black.
The Christian registrar who refused to carry out CP ceremonies (whom I criticised quite strongly) was black.
So please try not to misrepresent me.
It's really unfair.
There...I said that without getting annoyed!
Back to Britain's Got Talent for me!
(not sure is that's a treat or a punishment).
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