Should Labour Abolish Those Pointless...
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I Know We've Done This To Death, But...
149 Answers
... why does the sheer number of racists/homophobes/whatever in UKIP simply not bother people?
The usual response is that "all parties have bad eggs that we don't hear about." But
a) UKIP are significantly worse offenders
b) UKIP do not seem to care about their unsavoury members. Every time there's a platitude about how the problem will be solved, or how the party is taking quick and effective action - but then it transpires that the person has been behaving in such a way for a very long time, and earned no response.
Why do the same empty excuses always prove so effective? Does this really not bother people? Is nobody concerned that they may have just elected one of UKIP's legion of bad eggs to public office?
The usual response is that "all parties have bad eggs that we don't hear about." But
a) UKIP are significantly worse offenders
b) UKIP do not seem to care about their unsavoury members. Every time there's a platitude about how the problem will be solved, or how the party is taking quick and effective action - but then it transpires that the person has been behaving in such a way for a very long time, and earned no response.
Why do the same empty excuses always prove so effective? Does this really not bother people? Is nobody concerned that they may have just elected one of UKIP's legion of bad eggs to public office?
Answers
I think you are still missing the point. I'm reminded of all these people who, on expressing their views and getting criticised, throw out the "I'm entitled to my opinion" defence. Well yes, they are, and no-one ever disputed that. But then I am equally entitled to mine, an opinion which sees yours as backward or bigoted or whatever, and there is no reason why I...
13:50 Mon 26th May 2014
sp1814
/// How can we not assume that UKIP voters are stupid if UKIP themselves proffer the suggestion that their failure to win over London voters was because we in the capital are too educated? ///
Read what was actually said. puts an entirely different meaning to the word 'educated'.
*** Asked to explain the party's failure in London, Ukip's Suzanne Evans was asked if she agreed with the Kipper who had said the problem was that the capital was too full of the "cultured, educated and young". She did not dismiss that view, conceding that, yes, there was a "more media-savvy, well-educated population in London" who were more likely to have swallowed press lies about the Faragistes. ***
http://
/// How can we not assume that UKIP voters are stupid if UKIP themselves proffer the suggestion that their failure to win over London voters was because we in the capital are too educated? ///
Read what was actually said. puts an entirely different meaning to the word 'educated'.
*** Asked to explain the party's failure in London, Ukip's Suzanne Evans was asked if she agreed with the Kipper who had said the problem was that the capital was too full of the "cultured, educated and young". She did not dismiss that view, conceding that, yes, there was a "more media-savvy, well-educated population in London" who were more likely to have swallowed press lies about the Faragistes. ***
http://
jim360
They haven't yet made homosexuality compulsory, so why should persons not be given the freedom to their own views on homosexuality without the need to be classed as homophobic and bigots.
They have much more important things in their lives to be bothered about instead of showing any interest in other's sexuality.
They haven't yet made homosexuality compulsory, so why should persons not be given the freedom to their own views on homosexuality without the need to be classed as homophobic and bigots.
They have much more important things in their lives to be bothered about instead of showing any interest in other's sexuality.
I think you are still missing the point. I'm reminded of all these people who, on expressing their views and getting criticised, throw out the "I'm entitled to my opinion" defence. Well yes, they are, and no-one ever disputed that. But then I am equally entitled to mine, an opinion which sees yours as backward or bigoted or whatever, and there is no reason why I can't express that.
People can have opinions, but they should be prepared to face criticism and disagreement and perhaps even insult and stop trying to hide behind free speech to defend what are, in some cases, horrific views. And freedom of speech and expression carries with it no freedom from criticism -- nor indeed any obligation of other people to listen.
Homophobia, wherever it is see, should be challenged.
People can have opinions, but they should be prepared to face criticism and disagreement and perhaps even insult and stop trying to hide behind free speech to defend what are, in some cases, horrific views. And freedom of speech and expression carries with it no freedom from criticism -- nor indeed any obligation of other people to listen.
Homophobia, wherever it is see, should be challenged.
to go back to your op Kromo, Tim Montgomerie - who's no fool - offers some analysis about why here:
http://
http://
Yes this thread has deviated a little on to the topic of homophobia (which is just one on the laundry list of prejudices displayed by a number of people within UKIP - including their candidates)
I wanted to ask any UKIP voters whether this actually bothers them. It seems pretyy clear that it doesn't - which (and I'm expressing my own opinion here) is somewhat depressing.
I wanted to ask any UKIP voters whether this actually bothers them. It seems pretyy clear that it doesn't - which (and I'm expressing my own opinion here) is somewhat depressing.
Krom, //I wanted to ask any UKIP voters whether this actually bothers them. It seems pretyy clear that it doesn't - which (and I'm expressing my own opinion here) is somewhat depressing.//
It’s difficult, isn’t it Krom. People see a party that is speaking up for their main concerns – uncontrolled immigration and our position in the EU. The rest is incidental. It’s like any party really - well at least if not the party their representatives. None of them can possibly represent absolutely everything their supporters want. For example, although I abhor fox hunting, other things take precedence for me and therefore the Conservative’s stance on that wouldn’t deter me from voting for them.
Jim, from what I see I'd say that works both ways.
It’s difficult, isn’t it Krom. People see a party that is speaking up for their main concerns – uncontrolled immigration and our position in the EU. The rest is incidental. It’s like any party really - well at least if not the party their representatives. None of them can possibly represent absolutely everything their supporters want. For example, although I abhor fox hunting, other things take precedence for me and therefore the Conservative’s stance on that wouldn’t deter me from voting for them.
Jim, from what I see I'd say that works both ways.
depressing though not surprising. Against all that's happened since 2008, the incumbent political class was always up for a good kicking, or peasant's revolt as so Boris charmingly put it. And until people stop being talked at by policy wonks and spoken to as adults about clear policies, sadly bar room populism is likely to prevail.
@kromovaracun-I wanted to ask any UKIP voters whether this actually bothers them. It seems pretyy clear that it doesn't - which (and I'm expressing my own opinion here) is somewhat depressing!
what depresses me is the state of the country when either Tory or labour are in government, ukip's election wins were a breath of fresh air although they have no chance in the next general election i'm afraid!
what depresses me is the state of the country when either Tory or labour are in government, ukip's election wins were a breath of fresh air although they have no chance in the next general election i'm afraid!
AOG
You wrote:
"And what if they are, even the usual offensive definitions of their views ie 'unpalatable' homophobic etc, are not enough to change their personal views".
I don't care if they don't change their views. To be honest, if older people feel like this then so be it. The encouraging thing is that as you move down the age groups, anti-gay sentiments decrease. Younger people are more open, and it will be these more positive attitudes that will stand us in good stead in the decades to come.
You wrote:
"And what if they are, even the usual offensive definitions of their views ie 'unpalatable' homophobic etc, are not enough to change their personal views".
I don't care if they don't change their views. To be honest, if older people feel like this then so be it. The encouraging thing is that as you move down the age groups, anti-gay sentiments decrease. Younger people are more open, and it will be these more positive attitudes that will stand us in good stead in the decades to come.
naomi24
You wrote:
"I don’t think people who voted Ukip were thinking for a moment about whether or not Ukip is homophobic. The electorate are concerned about uncontrolled immigration and our place in the EU – and that’s what the vote reflected. Nothing else."
Would it be fair to say then, that the only reason to vote for UKIP is for their policies on the EU and immigration?
That being the case, can we assume that UKIP voters, in their heart of hearts, really don't want the party to be elected - y'know...to be in charge of education, the environment agency, the treasury, health and social security etc?
You wrote:
"I don’t think people who voted Ukip were thinking for a moment about whether or not Ukip is homophobic. The electorate are concerned about uncontrolled immigration and our place in the EU – and that’s what the vote reflected. Nothing else."
Would it be fair to say then, that the only reason to vote for UKIP is for their policies on the EU and immigration?
That being the case, can we assume that UKIP voters, in their heart of hearts, really don't want the party to be elected - y'know...to be in charge of education, the environment agency, the treasury, health and social security etc?
AOG
You wrote:
"They haven't yet made homosexuality compulsory, so why should persons not be given the freedom to their own views on homosexuality without the need to be classed as homophobic and bigots."
If someone has the freedom to label gay people perverts, and if someone else has the freedom to ask "what would happen if you shot one poof" and if someone else suggests that gay parents are child abusers...aren't the rest of use allowed to respond?
Should we stay silent?
You also went on to write:
"They have much more important things in their lives to be bothered about instead of showing any interest in other's sexuality."
And yet...and yet...they can't seem to stop themselves from talking about it.
You wrote:
"They haven't yet made homosexuality compulsory, so why should persons not be given the freedom to their own views on homosexuality without the need to be classed as homophobic and bigots."
If someone has the freedom to label gay people perverts, and if someone else has the freedom to ask "what would happen if you shot one poof" and if someone else suggests that gay parents are child abusers...aren't the rest of use allowed to respond?
Should we stay silent?
You also went on to write:
"They have much more important things in their lives to be bothered about instead of showing any interest in other's sexuality."
And yet...and yet...they can't seem to stop themselves from talking about it.
//can we assume that UKIP voters, in their heart of hearts, really don't want the party to be elected - y'know...to be in charge of education, the environment agency, the treasury, health and social security etc? //
to get an idea of what happens when a fringe party are put in charge of everyday stuff, you need look no further than brighton council, and their green leadership - which whilst idealogically sound with the right-on bohemian residents, actually has little municipal experience and thus no clue how to run the city effectively.
to get an idea of what happens when a fringe party are put in charge of everyday stuff, you need look no further than brighton council, and their green leadership - which whilst idealogically sound with the right-on bohemian residents, actually has little municipal experience and thus no clue how to run the city effectively.
"You are tolerant, as long as people keep quiet about it. That's not at all the right sort of attitude."
Well I'm sorry about that, Jim ! So now it seems not only must my views accord with current thinking my attitude must as well !!! And we hear of people prattling on about rights and freedoms.
For the record and so that there is no misunderstanding, I have my own views on homosexuality which do not matter to anybody else and which will remain with me. However, as you have noted, I don't really care what other people get up to as long as it does not affect me, as long as I do not have to see it or hear the details, and so long as I do not have to pay for it. I don’t care if I hear about a man’s boyfriend or a woman’s girlfriend. It’s unimportant small beer. However (and here is where I'll put the cat among the pigeons) politically it is way too far down the food chain for it to be an issue for me. Given the choice between a party containing one or two homophobes, islamaphobes or misogynists (and UKIP is certainly not that) that pledged to take the UK out of the EU, and one full of politically correct right-on liberals who pledged to keep us in, I'd choose the former every time. It's that important to me.
So, to return to Kromo’s question, no I don’t really care that UKIP has a few what are seen by some as bad eggs in its basket. There are more important issues for the UK electorate to worry about than the odd party member’s views on women or gay people. Whatever people might think to the contrary, none is more important at present than this country’s relationship with the EU. It impinges on just about everything else. And, whatever they might spout, none of the main parties seem prepared to do anything about it
Well I'm sorry about that, Jim ! So now it seems not only must my views accord with current thinking my attitude must as well !!! And we hear of people prattling on about rights and freedoms.
For the record and so that there is no misunderstanding, I have my own views on homosexuality which do not matter to anybody else and which will remain with me. However, as you have noted, I don't really care what other people get up to as long as it does not affect me, as long as I do not have to see it or hear the details, and so long as I do not have to pay for it. I don’t care if I hear about a man’s boyfriend or a woman’s girlfriend. It’s unimportant small beer. However (and here is where I'll put the cat among the pigeons) politically it is way too far down the food chain for it to be an issue for me. Given the choice between a party containing one or two homophobes, islamaphobes or misogynists (and UKIP is certainly not that) that pledged to take the UK out of the EU, and one full of politically correct right-on liberals who pledged to keep us in, I'd choose the former every time. It's that important to me.
So, to return to Kromo’s question, no I don’t really care that UKIP has a few what are seen by some as bad eggs in its basket. There are more important issues for the UK electorate to worry about than the odd party member’s views on women or gay people. Whatever people might think to the contrary, none is more important at present than this country’s relationship with the EU. It impinges on just about everything else. And, whatever they might spout, none of the main parties seem prepared to do anything about it
sp1814
/// The encouraging thing is that as you move down the age groups, anti-gay sentiments decrease. Younger people are more open, and it will be these more positive attitudes that will stand us in good stead in the decades to come. ///
What age group would you say those who actually hand out physical violence towards gays come from, I am sure it isn't the older generation?
/// The encouraging thing is that as you move down the age groups, anti-gay sentiments decrease. Younger people are more open, and it will be these more positive attitudes that will stand us in good stead in the decades to come. ///
What age group would you say those who actually hand out physical violence towards gays come from, I am sure it isn't the older generation?
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