Agree to disagree?

[Seadragon]

You can criticize me all you want for this post, I'm not really bothered and I am not suggesting any one in particular this is general but I would like to say that these discussions on this site are interesting, demanding and very enlightening. Although alot of them are religious based and I get the impression that many users are very knowledgeable in religion, it does not mean that other opinions can be treated disrepectfully. I appreciate that some opinions may frustrate the knowledgeable user by their lack of education in that area. I, myself will say that my opinions in this area may be naive, pathetic, unsophisticated and poor but nevertheless I have an opinion and I have every right as any other user to voice my opinion.

I would not participate in this site if I was not open to being educated in this area.This in itself should suggest a positive step for those who want to influence others by their knowledge. As adults we should appreciate the different lifesyles and backgrounds that we all come from and we should respect different views within reason, without being insulting. Instead a response post should be educational and is it too much to ask that it be understanding? Instead of critical or scarcastic? I did actually end up watching a 2 hour doc 'The BIble Unearthed' today which I would never have done. Finally I ask again that whatever someone's belief, however pathetic and naive it comes across, it is nevertheless someone's held belief and no-one appreciates or deserves disrespect of that. If it's not agreeable that's fine but at least be reasonable in expressing your disagreement of it.

[naomi24]

You should know by now that Chakka doesn't need a messenger. However, since I was involved in that thread, I'm interested to know what Nay Sayers are, and why you say they are so nasty.

[Seadragon]

Yeh Karl - you make alot of sense. Although I don't know about the 'how other people think and live (they are exactly like you or I)' part. I think sometimes the more we are exposed to other cultures and people actually highlights more differences but ironically this knowledge can lead to tolerance or intolerance, depending on the character of the person who is exposed to it. If that makes sense?

Ankou - Inhumanity against humanity.......may have its basis in a lack of respect? Brutality, barbarism, horror, monstrosity etc (maybe not evil though?) if one can see a person as simply a person and respect them as a person then is it possible that they can override the prejudices and ill-breeding of society? That person does not have to have compassion for another, just respect. Although you're probably right, I'm just arguing with you because its my nature and its enjoyable, so I'm pulling at any thread going. Plus, you don't get angry

That's just it Naomi. I don't read faith books - I follow my own belief, not religion and respect others as long as their actions don't hurt another. I actually agree with alot of what you're saying. I think you have hit a good point when you say 'he is the one whom people, from childhood, are taught to fear.....' That's so correct. Children are brainwashed from an early age and indoctrinated by fear to believe. Which, I think is fine except the prejudices and intolerance of one religion against another should reamain in the adult domain is actually poisoning the mind of the young. And they are growing up with a prejudice, even 'hatred' beyond that of religion - I think.

Beso, I have afew things to say to you but I am starving now and have to put dinner on but would love to talk to you tomorrow.

[Seadragon]

And you guys, keep it clean please. We all trying to make the World a better here, if we can't do that between ourselves on AB what chance have we in the rest of the World? Although if you are taking the mickey out of each other, that's fine. Then just ignore what I said. And Chakka, speak to you tomorrow. Good day you guys x - RESPECT as Ali G says.

[KARL]

Seadragon, having travelled widely and lived among people of very varied backgrounds, it has struck me how the core drivers of all of us are exactly the same: achieve a secure existence, develop close friendships, find a good partner, breed and raise offspring for whom we want to provide a secure future.....and then the whole cycle repeats itself. The differences far to many are fixated by are almost always really quite trivial. I do note that current trends suggest people are drifting into virtual friendships which are characterised by not sharing both time and space, only time. It is being seriously suggested that this stunts development. Time will tell. As more and more people become well educated, benefit from balanced discussion and debate, and feel more at ease with their ultimate destiny (death), then they will come to see disagreement when contemplating the the unknown as stimulating and helpful - the philosophical exercise is fascinating and the richness of different ideas is rewarding. But there are always likely to be bigots of all hues among us. We cannot and should not try to restrict their thoughts or freedom of expression, but we should place constraints on any tendency they show to force their views on others.

[Ankou]

absolutely right karl. i think it is a case of people looking for answers and finding one that suits them in particular in different places. it is when they insist their answer is right and use it against everyone else - in the form of jihads etc - it becomes intolerable.

noami, didn;t say anyone was nasty did i ?

seadragon, big up ti the staines massif

[naomi24]

Seadragon, that isn't a faith book - far from it. Not to worry. I just thought you might find it interesting.

Ankou, well, yes you did.. When you say 'plenty of nice people here despite the nay sayers', that clearly indicates that the Nay Sayers aren't nice.

[Ankou]

don't imply they are nasty though dusit.
varying degrees of not niceness and all that.
just you meddling with me words.

[naomi24]

Ha ha! Yes, Ankou, of course it is. Nudge, nudge. ;o)

[Seadragon]

Beso, I was going to write a load of stuff to you but I changed my mind. Its not meant to be. I've read over your posts here and on the Holocaust thread and as I said before they are very passionate regarding your beliefs. I understand that it is very important for your voice to be heard for the many reasons you give in your posts. However I think what I find difficult about your posts and why I start to dissociate from them is that - and I really don't mean to criticize, so please forgive me if it reads as such but your posts seem dictatorial like a passionate tirade against religion, quite dogmatic and slightly ranting. (I know this reads really bad and I am sorry, but I can't find the right words) Also you slip in -'I implore people....you had better get used to it.....it has to stop and we have the right to demand this.....' I think thats when I start to switch-off and I really don't want to because what you say is interesting and knowledgeable and (no insult) but probably factual.

You and others have actually affected my views on religion over the past 2 weeks to the point that I sat thru that 2 hour doc, which was a nightmare for me to endure - but I did and its down to you guys. The fact that I am open to try and discuss, however pathetically, with you lot regarding religious issues can only be a positive thing and maybe another step in the right direction for a debateable forum on an issue that does affect and has affected many peoples lives. Maybe then, that voice you want heard, will not fall on deaf ears.

[beso]

I am passionate abut this issue because it is important for the future of humanity. Do not underestimate the extent to which Biblical philosophy influences our plunge towards the Armageddon they eagerly await. Those who support the Bible without even being aware of the unsavoury content are contributing credibility and energy to extremist philosophy.

It is the church that has been dogmatic and dictatorial. They still believe they have the right to tell society how to behave with no more supporting argument than "God's will" based entirely on their biassed reading ot the Bible.

All I really seek is to be able to criticise this philosophy without enduring the "respect for religion" rubbish. I do implore people to be active oversome their ambivalence toward religious dogma. I do want the religious to realise these criticisms are valid and will not go away.

[Seadragon]

Chakka, I should say that I dread being an Atheist as what others decide is not up to me. But I dread Atheism for the same reasons as anybody else really. Whether it is a fear of death and the unknown or maybe a belief in God provides some answers in the World e.g coincidences, fate, why bad things happen? etc. I don't know where people would get comfort and solace from if not in something else? If the answer is in their loved ones, then some people out there just aren't as lucky? Or maybe Atheists are just fearless people?

Karl this virtual friendship stuff is something isn't it? On the one hand people are so connected - I would imagine through Facebook and on the other they're not in reality, but yet these virtual friendships do have an effect upon people. AB is anonymous and people dictate the pace at which interact? for that reason I wouldn't call this site one of friendship. I don't know, one to definitely think about and discuss another time?

[Ankou]

seadragon, of course us atheists have fears to some extent, but not of burning in places called hell, or being judged by a cloud dwelling beardy bloke. i don't fear death, just a maybe a little bit of apprehension towards how it might happen and the finality of it - leaving people behind etc. the final unconscious sleep.

my comfort comes from an exuberant life. the opportunity to live it without boundaries of imaginary guilt, only my own inner morality. my behaviour in life is driven by my desires and personality, it so happens that they are good - or morally acceptable - ones that hurt or harm nobody in a physical or psychological way. i wish i had the talent to make a larger impact onthe world and be remembered for it, but alas this is not to be. i will just be remembered fondly by loved ones, and that is enough for me. i don't want nor need any promises of an eternal afterlife if i am good. or the need to make penance with an imgainary friend if i am bad. i just want to live, and enjoy it while it lasts.

i agre with you about friendships. why would you want them on here. real friends exist in the real world, you can see them, touch them, interact with eye contact and at a personal level, and have a real beer together. there are some people who i connect with on here because of similar views, opinions and humour. but i wouldn't call them friends in the real sense of the word. i wouldn't say anyone here 'affects' me, i just read it consider it, opine then respond. then move on.

except with you of course.

[Seadragon]

(laughing) Thanks Ankou, just don't ever get all soft and mushy on me okay? And this peace and love stuff --- I can only take that in doses!

Thanks everyone, it has been fun and demanding and I should really catch up on all the newspapers I have left unread this week. For all I know, religion could have been wiped out in the East.

Until next time....and as Mork says 'Na..Noo..Na..Noo.'

[beso]

Don't make the mistake of assuming the rejection of religion automatically mean an absence of spirituality.

http://dictionary.cam...p?key=82318&dict=CALD
theism noun
/ˈθiː.ɪ.zəm/ n [U]
the belief that there is only one god, who is completely separate from those things (the Earth, people, etc.) he has created, rather than being part of them

This definition is central to my gripe with theists. The separation of God and Nature. I believe there is a greater spirit drawn from the collective conscious of all things. We can participate best by making our own spiritual contribution. In my view religion is Man's way of protecting himself from spiritual experience.

Unfortunately the breadth and depth of the theist dogma on the spirituality of half the world's population has built a collective conscious that is truly schitzophrenic. This behaviour is evident in both the behaviour of their Holy Men and closely resembles the broader character of humanity since the dawn of history.

Little wonder the clloective conscious is deely damaged when it is based on a philosophy of death and domination were the grandest hope of salvation is achieved with the destruction of civilisation. Combined with the belief that the decendents are guilty of the sins of their ancestors and hence all born bad and there is little doubt that we are dealing with a deeply flawed philosophical model.

[beso]

I see a chance for a better world where the inevitable ancient tribal personality conflicts are undepinned by a deeper sense character that allows humanity to sensibly persue the collective good. My model of spirituality is struggling to survive in a world dominated by international brutality and prejudice in the theist paradigm.

Atheists have a right to speak up when we can see the damage being done by the theists to fulfil the Armageddon prophecy. People like Osama bin Laden and George W Bush have made phenominal progress in this glorious goal as they apply the ancient wisdom of conquest through battle in the name of God.