The Return Of The Tumbleweed Remover.

[Theland1]

You seem to have been wandering in the desert for forty years, and only tumbleweed to break the monotony.
The trouble is that you all seem to broadly agree with each other, being a crowd of heathens who choose to live in denial of a higher power.
Maybe it is time for you to listen to the message in the gospels, and consider the great free offer that God makes to you all, the forgiveness of sin for eternity, and life after death in the presence of the Lord.
So, why not make a start and acknowledge the, "God of your understanding," that is, your personal perception of God, and rejection of the atheists, "faith," in science?

[Ankou]

i doubt i would be on my own.
i can imagine all the religionists trapped behind the locked gates screaming at the atheists to let them out !!

so what you are saying is that i have decided my own fate which is the rejection of eternal humdinkum with you and your god ? i can live with that. so why are you trying to change my mind, if i am content with my fate ?

[Bathsheba]

'ere!!! Theland!!! What's your game then??? Worrying your pals like this ;-)
You'd better have a damn fine excuse for me.....*Baths folds arms + taps foot* xxx

[jackthehat]

Nice to see your name back again, Theland...............:o)

[Theland1]

Waldo - the enquirer who does not give credence to the invisible frozen pea goes off to believe in dark matter. Invisible and massless and exists only on presumption.

Maybe the cosmos is affected gravitationally by flying chocolate teapots, obese cosmic fairies, or even the great bulk of the FSM whose calorie intake of pasta causes planets to wobble? just a thought.

My first girlfriend went on to develop a butt that pull the tide in!

[Theland1]

Mrs Bath - is this about the fiver I owe you?

[Bathsheba]

Lovely to see you Theland! No, it's about the email reply you owe me ;-) xxx

[Theland1]

Wiz - A lot of points to answer there. Time prohibits me being too specific, but I admire your inner strength, and applaud your family and friends who stuck by you.

Got to go shoplifting soon. Oops sorry! I meant shopping. (Scouse Freudian slip.)

[Theland1]

Mrs Bath - Will mail you - promise.

[WaldoMcFroog]

Dark matter is a scientific hypothesis on the basis of evidence. It is implicit in describing it as a hypothesis that it may be wrong, and if it is wrong, then the scientifically-inclined person will change their thinking to reflect the better explanation. Certainly the universe behaves as though dark matter is a fact, even if it hasn't been discovered as yet. If it is wrong, it will fascinate and enthral me as much as if it's correct; it's about understanding how the universe works. Can you honestly say the same about your belief in God..?

Incidentally, what are you going to do if the LHC (or similar) finds dark matter and kills your argument? These sorts of arguments are very dangerous to you, because you're constantly in danger of squeezing God out of yet another gap.

Anyway, this is not analogous to belief in God, no matter how many times you assert otherwise.

[Theland1]

The supermarket analogy was certainly not a parallel argument to belief in God, but fun nonetheless. Maybe a good starting point for our younger viewers, ("here's one I made earlier" etc).

If we are all sitting comfortably and wearing our presumption hats, then we can presume that the universe was created / made / came into existence from nothing.
If we agree on this, then first of all we have to agree on the description of, "nothing".

This could be a thread all of its own, both in R & S and even science. What do you think?

[WaldoMcFroog]

No, I meant your attempt to equate belief in DM with belief in God, not the supermarket thing. The two meanings of belief are different, hence the analogy is a poor one.

re: The universe, to the best of our ability to tell, it came into existence with the Big Bang and that started with a singularity, so not nothing.

[Theland1]

The singularity - ah there's the crunch, if you'll pardon the reverse pun.
This flies in the face of reason, as the presumption is that it did not have a beginning, contrary to our knowledge and experience that everything we trip over has a beginning ..... but not this one. ???

[WaldoMcFroog]

You presume too much. Here you're getting into murky waters because - counter-intuitively - time doesn't exist before the BB. The question is analogous to asking what's north of the north pole?

[Rev Sermon]

Just to play devil's advocate, firstly Waldo, does the big bang theory exclude a god. I have trouble with the problem of time not existing before the big band because despite sort of understanding the theory I can't really comprehend it. I also have problems believing in a mathematical equation as proof. If we accept the big bang theory, my biggest remaining question is what triggered it? Why did it happen? God? A "supernatural interstellar kid with a chemistry set"?

Secondly, Theland, I don't subscribe to your god theory but I can't disprove it so accept it could be accurate. Biggest question here then is why do you feel your religion's version and you holy book is correct rather than say the pagan, hindu, or scientologist version. I have a bigger problem in accepting a given religion than the existence of a creator. In particular why should an omnipotent, all powerful being feel the need to be worshipped?

[WaldoMcFroog]

You're not playing Devil's Advocate with me, Rev, because I haven't suggested the BB excludes the possibility of it being divinely inspired!

As to 'what triggered it, the answer is - satisfying or not - we just don't know. There are lots of people trying to see if it's possible to find out, and lots of people who insist the answer's in old books about their deities, but the best answer is still 'we don't know'.

[chakka35]

Theland, what worries me is not your belief in obvious nonsense - I don't get worried about those who believe in fairies, astrology or a flat earth - but your firm conviction that your irrationality will give you some sort of ultimate privilege, whereas those of us who use the brains that evolution has given us will be left suffering outside.

Isn't that thoroughly nasty, smug, uncharitable idea?

The threat itself naturally doesn't concern me, but you do. That you can be so self-centredly and triumphantly uncaring about what you imagine is going to happen to the more intelligent of your brethren makes you either an unpleasant fellow or one who needs help.

[Theland1]

In my opinion, God will judge us by our own consciences. If my conscience includes the knowledge of Jesus Christ and His teachings, then that is the yardstick for me.
I have no excuse for rejecting Him.
Your yardstick will obviously be different, and so long as you do not act against your own conscience, then I believe you will be accepted by God also.
Not being a theologian, that is the best answer I can offer for now.

Regarding the cause of a singularity, from which we presumably came, it is crazy and dishonest to exclude a divine author from all possibilities.

[mibn2cweus]

While for the moment I see no point in declaring myself to be one amongst a significant minority who have rationally and conscientiously reached a conclusion that Theland has decreed to be “crazy and dishonest” I am only slightly less certain that should a perfectly natural explanation be found for the BB, Theland would have very little trouble finding a new hiding place to stash his ‘divine’ albeit imaginary friend.

[Theland1]

Oh Mibs! That stung! But keep 'em coming pal.