Twitching & Birdwatching4 mins ago
Stop and Search.
To what extent are the current Stop and Search rules responsible for the rise of knife and gun crime in London ?
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derekpara
Here's recommendations on 'Stop & Search' from The Stephen Lawrence Inquiry
STOP AND SEARCH
60. That the powers of the police under current legislation are required for the prevention and detection of crime and should remain unchanged.
61. That the Home Secretary, in consultation with Police Services, should ensure that a record is made by police officers of all "stops" and "stops and searches" made under any legislative provision (not just the Police and Criminal Evidence Act). Non-statutory or so called "voluntary" stops must also be recorded. The record to include the reason for the stop, the outcome, and the self-defined ethnic identity of the person stopped. A copy of the record shall be given to the person stopped.
62. That these records should be monitored and analysed by Police Services and Police Authorities, and reviewed by HMIC on inspections. The information and analysis should be published.
63. That Police Authorities be given the duty to undertake publicity campaigns to ensure that the public is aware of "stop and search" provisions and the right to receive a record in all circumstances.
Where did you read that the rules arose out of the MacPherson Inquiry???
It's patently untrue...possibly something drummed up by the right wing press perhaps?
Here's recommendations on 'Stop & Search' from The Stephen Lawrence Inquiry
STOP AND SEARCH
60. That the powers of the police under current legislation are required for the prevention and detection of crime and should remain unchanged.
61. That the Home Secretary, in consultation with Police Services, should ensure that a record is made by police officers of all "stops" and "stops and searches" made under any legislative provision (not just the Police and Criminal Evidence Act). Non-statutory or so called "voluntary" stops must also be recorded. The record to include the reason for the stop, the outcome, and the self-defined ethnic identity of the person stopped. A copy of the record shall be given to the person stopped.
62. That these records should be monitored and analysed by Police Services and Police Authorities, and reviewed by HMIC on inspections. The information and analysis should be published.
63. That Police Authorities be given the duty to undertake publicity campaigns to ensure that the public is aware of "stop and search" provisions and the right to receive a record in all circumstances.
Where did you read that the rules arose out of the MacPherson Inquiry???
It's patently untrue...possibly something drummed up by the right wing press perhaps?
redhead23
Australia is a great country....except that in Sydney now, you have to watch out for the odd race riot or two:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/leaders -back-jones-in-race-riot-case/2007/04/11/11759 71134441.html
I have mates who emigrated out to Oz, and hated it so much they leap-frogged to NZ.
Me, I couldn't leave the UK - best country in the world by a country mile.
Australia is a great country....except that in Sydney now, you have to watch out for the odd race riot or two:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/leaders -back-jones-in-race-riot-case/2007/04/11/11759 71134441.html
I have mates who emigrated out to Oz, and hated it so much they leap-frogged to NZ.
Me, I couldn't leave the UK - best country in the world by a country mile.
Best country in the world by a country mile ?
I agree it used to be, but we have had 20 years of soft government who have allowed any tom,dick and mohamed to come here without a thought of what skills they have, what illnesses they have, and if we even need them.
Kids as young as 13 accused of stabbing someone to death.
Guns crime amongst the black community out of control, and even a police department who look at nothing but black gun crime.
TB in Birmingham up 50% in 6 years, and as the local doctor says, it is mostly in the Asian comunity, see below:
"Dr John Innes, consultant physician at Birmingham Heartlands Hospital, said most cases in the region were among the Asian community".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlan ds/6483611.stm
Muslims setting bombs off in underground trains, mosques being burnt down due to racial tensions:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghams hire/6532317.stm
Record prison population, in an illegal war in Iraq, failing health service, road traffic gridlock, crumbling inner cities,
thousand of illegal immigrants.
Tell me why it is the best country in the world.
I agree it used to be, but we have had 20 years of soft government who have allowed any tom,dick and mohamed to come here without a thought of what skills they have, what illnesses they have, and if we even need them.
Kids as young as 13 accused of stabbing someone to death.
Guns crime amongst the black community out of control, and even a police department who look at nothing but black gun crime.
TB in Birmingham up 50% in 6 years, and as the local doctor says, it is mostly in the Asian comunity, see below:
"Dr John Innes, consultant physician at Birmingham Heartlands Hospital, said most cases in the region were among the Asian community".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlan ds/6483611.stm
Muslims setting bombs off in underground trains, mosques being burnt down due to racial tensions:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghams hire/6532317.stm
Record prison population, in an illegal war in Iraq, failing health service, road traffic gridlock, crumbling inner cities,
thousand of illegal immigrants.
Tell me why it is the best country in the world.
Best country in the world:
1. Leicester Square in London on a Friday night during the summer when the fair is open and people are streaming out of the cinemas to go to a great bar or restaurant.
2. New Yorker magazine naming London as the 'Capital of the 21st Century World'.
3. The Lake District...I mean dude...have you ever been??? It's great.
4. Walking round Yorkminster Cathedral on a Saturday afternoon with your neck craned upwards.
5. Amy Winehouse, Mika, Girls Aloud, Kaiser Chiefs, Lily Allen, Razorlight, Sugababes, Fratellis, Keane, Kasabian - basically, the best music in the world is coming out of this country
6. Madonna, Kirsten Dunst and Gwyneth Paltrow all marrying/going out with Brits (they know quality when they see it).
7. Restaurants - The Fat Duck, The Peasant, Nobu, Fifteen, Roka...great places opening all the time. You can eat a great meal for under �10 or over �100...and that's not just in London - all the major cities have great places...apart from Birmingham of course
(Kidding).
8. The Science Museum...that's all I have to say.
9. Sitting outside La Pont De La Tour on a Sunday afternoon watching the world go by.
10. Going for a curry down Brick Lane on a Friday night with your mates.
1. Leicester Square in London on a Friday night during the summer when the fair is open and people are streaming out of the cinemas to go to a great bar or restaurant.
2. New Yorker magazine naming London as the 'Capital of the 21st Century World'.
3. The Lake District...I mean dude...have you ever been??? It's great.
4. Walking round Yorkminster Cathedral on a Saturday afternoon with your neck craned upwards.
5. Amy Winehouse, Mika, Girls Aloud, Kaiser Chiefs, Lily Allen, Razorlight, Sugababes, Fratellis, Keane, Kasabian - basically, the best music in the world is coming out of this country
6. Madonna, Kirsten Dunst and Gwyneth Paltrow all marrying/going out with Brits (they know quality when they see it).
7. Restaurants - The Fat Duck, The Peasant, Nobu, Fifteen, Roka...great places opening all the time. You can eat a great meal for under �10 or over �100...and that's not just in London - all the major cities have great places...apart from Birmingham of course
(Kidding).
8. The Science Museum...that's all I have to say.
9. Sitting outside La Pont De La Tour on a Sunday afternoon watching the world go by.
10. Going for a curry down Brick Lane on a Friday night with your mates.
Furthermore:
11. Night bus singalongs...normally on any bus heading out of Leicester Square on a Saturday night/Sunday morning.
12. Brunch at
13. Taking your mum for tea at the Ritz on a wet Wednesday afternoon.
14. Sitting with your feet dangling in the Serpentine whilst demolishing a Cornetto on a summer afternoon.
15. The architecture of Edinburgh.
16. Donegal (okay - technically that's outside the UK, but I'm including it because you can enjoy visiting there very easily.
17. Dublin - the party captial of Europe...full stop.
18. Boating holidays on the Norfolk Broads.
19. Haggling for salt cod down Brixton market on a Saturday afternoon.
20. Sunday afternoons with the papers, a Pims and good friends.
No sir...I dismiss your negatives....UK, A-Okay.
11. Night bus singalongs...normally on any bus heading out of Leicester Square on a Saturday night/Sunday morning.
12. Brunch at
13. Taking your mum for tea at the Ritz on a wet Wednesday afternoon.
14. Sitting with your feet dangling in the Serpentine whilst demolishing a Cornetto on a summer afternoon.
15. The architecture of Edinburgh.
16. Donegal (okay - technically that's outside the UK, but I'm including it because you can enjoy visiting there very easily.
17. Dublin - the party captial of Europe...full stop.
18. Boating holidays on the Norfolk Broads.
19. Haggling for salt cod down Brixton market on a Saturday afternoon.
20. Sunday afternoons with the papers, a Pims and good friends.
No sir...I dismiss your negatives....UK, A-Okay.
12 should read;
'Brunch at Balan, Soho on any weekday'
I could go on to give you another 20, or 40 great thing about this country, but you get my point.
I can only write from a Londoner's perspective, because this is the only place I've ever lived. However, I find it astonishing that someone could diss a country which is so damn brilliant that people are clamouring to come it.
This is certainly not a bad place to live...try Uganda in the 70s, or St Louis now...now that's a better definition of somewhere you wouldn't want to live.
'Brunch at Balan, Soho on any weekday'
I could go on to give you another 20, or 40 great thing about this country, but you get my point.
I can only write from a Londoner's perspective, because this is the only place I've ever lived. However, I find it astonishing that someone could diss a country which is so damn brilliant that people are clamouring to come it.
This is certainly not a bad place to live...try Uganda in the 70s, or St Louis now...now that's a better definition of somewhere you wouldn't want to live.
Couldn't agree more. It's a great place to live and on balance, in my opinion, it's actually getting better year by year.
But then I like things like culture and quality of life and people and multiculturalism. Obviously, it's not perfect and there are ongoing, newly evolving social problems. But welcome to life.
I accept that some people will always hark back to a supposed (white) golden age. And think the place is going to the dogs. And harp on that they can't wait to leave. I wish they'd just do that though.
But then I like things like culture and quality of life and people and multiculturalism. Obviously, it's not perfect and there are ongoing, newly evolving social problems. But welcome to life.
I accept that some people will always hark back to a supposed (white) golden age. And think the place is going to the dogs. And harp on that they can't wait to leave. I wish they'd just do that though.
-- answer removed --
They are, to a small extent, responsible. Or rather the way they're carried out.
Because of the vagueness of the requirements, it's perfectly possible for police officers to claim reasonable grounds for suspicion in just about any circumstances. Averting your eyes, crossing the road, walking faster or slower are often deemed 'susipicious behaviour' and provide grounds for officers to conduct a search whenever they see fit.
Many people trot out the old 'if you've nothing to hide, what's the problem?' line. The problem is that black peole are still overwhelmingly targeted. Yes, the statistics say that knife and gun crime is largely committed by young black males. But it's your classic vicious circle.
If you and your friends and family were frequently stopped and searched even though you don't carry a weapon, have never carried a weapon and don't associate wth anyone that does (and that applies to the majority of black people, despite what the Daily Mail would have you believe), you would start to feel that you were being picked on because of the colour of your skin. And I don't care how law-abiding you think you are, if you and your white friends felt that you were being picked on by a largely black police, you'd start to feel disillusioned with the criminal justice system and society itself as well. And a by-product of that is a rise in anti-social behaviour.
Now, I'm not saying that it's one of the main factors - poverty, a lack of black role models, rap culture are all more damaging - but it is a factor.
What should be done, I do not know. Stop and search is an essential part of policing. Perhaps clearer guidelines on the definition of 'reasonable grounds' would help so that it doesn't boil down to sporting black skin and hoodie.
Because of the vagueness of the requirements, it's perfectly possible for police officers to claim reasonable grounds for suspicion in just about any circumstances. Averting your eyes, crossing the road, walking faster or slower are often deemed 'susipicious behaviour' and provide grounds for officers to conduct a search whenever they see fit.
Many people trot out the old 'if you've nothing to hide, what's the problem?' line. The problem is that black peole are still overwhelmingly targeted. Yes, the statistics say that knife and gun crime is largely committed by young black males. But it's your classic vicious circle.
If you and your friends and family were frequently stopped and searched even though you don't carry a weapon, have never carried a weapon and don't associate wth anyone that does (and that applies to the majority of black people, despite what the Daily Mail would have you believe), you would start to feel that you were being picked on because of the colour of your skin. And I don't care how law-abiding you think you are, if you and your white friends felt that you were being picked on by a largely black police, you'd start to feel disillusioned with the criminal justice system and society itself as well. And a by-product of that is a rise in anti-social behaviour.
Now, I'm not saying that it's one of the main factors - poverty, a lack of black role models, rap culture are all more damaging - but it is a factor.
What should be done, I do not know. Stop and search is an essential part of policing. Perhaps clearer guidelines on the definition of 'reasonable grounds' would help so that it doesn't boil down to sporting black skin and hoodie.
sp1814. Your interpretation of my question is correct. Thanks.
I just get the impression from police interviews on TV that they have to have a valid reason to conduct a simple Stop and Search and cannot simply rely on a 'copper's instinct' borne out of experience - and the paperwork alone makes some simply not bother.
I am not trying to be provocative, just wondering if there is a connection.
And Redhead, I tend to respond aggressively when shouted at - even in print. No hard feelings.
I just get the impression from police interviews on TV that they have to have a valid reason to conduct a simple Stop and Search and cannot simply rely on a 'copper's instinct' borne out of experience - and the paperwork alone makes some simply not bother.
I am not trying to be provocative, just wondering if there is a connection.
And Redhead, I tend to respond aggressively when shouted at - even in print. No hard feelings.
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